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I live in an apartment where I just cannot (or do not wish to) produce the noise usually associated with a guitar amp. Actually, I have mostly used headphones for quite some years, but now I am getting apprehensive that tinnitus might take over permanently one day. So I'm exploring ways to the make the most of a low-volume situation for playing and setting up a little studio.
I do have some experience with recording, and I do own quite a dozen pedals, modelers, preamps and stuff. So it’s not this aspect that I’m mainly interested in. It’s more about how to best fill a room with bedroom-level amplified jazz guitar sound, and I’m aware that there are limitations to that (laws of physics etc.).
Anyway, I would be going for a full and mellow sound, mildly on the darkish side and perhaps somewhat tubey in character. Before getting into the specifics of this, I can think of three basic solutions. Naturally there may be others that I’m not currently aware of and will be grateful for any pointers. But in your opinion, which of these basic routes would be the most likely to result in a gratifying solution?
(1) A mini-wattage tube amp?
(2) A moderate-power tube amp operated with an attenuator?
(3) A preamp (tube and/or modeler) operated with nearfield studio monitors?
Thanks for any input!
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10-16-2013 07:53 AM
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Will it only be for bedroom playing, or should it be gig-worthy?
I'm a tube guy, so I like your tube ideas. Jim Frenzel makes gig-worthy tube amps, and some with "full, 1/2, and 1/4" power switches so you can get a low-watt vibe for studio, home, etc. Check him out.
That being said, I'd put a Mambo amp on your list (solid state -- augh!), too. Tubey vibe in a small package, big sound.
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I'd look into a ZT Lunchbox I have one it sounds incredible and you have the bonus of a gig worthy easy to travel with amp!!!
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I'm always plugging this thing: Ethos Overdrive - despite the name it's a great clean channel all analog solid state pre-amp (plus an overdrive channel if you want). I use that with a pair of cheap Behringer powered monitors (ms16's) and it does the job very nicely. I don't like digital modelers because of the slight latency, which I find especially noticeable at fast tempos (haven't tried an axe-fx though).
There's obviously a ton of options out there which will work great - but given that you want the fullest sound at the lowest volume, having the speaker at head level is a must IMHO. So something to think about in terms of desk space, or room layout etc. etc.
What I like about the preamp through studio monitors route, is that if you're playing along with a backing track, you hear it and the guitar through the same speaker at ear level - so you can get a good mix, and hear everything super clear at a low volume.
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Well, gigworthiness would be an asset but definitively not my main concern. The problem with tube amps is that I'm afraid (without wishing to bias the thread before having collected opinions) there will be no simple answer to the large/small quandary. Earlier today I read a thread about how the Mesas Boogie Express would perform at low levels (the 25-watt one switchable to 15 and 5 watts), only to find out that some people prefer a Mark V for bedroom levels. This may seem totally ridiculous overkill, but if I knew a Mark V in my bedroom studio would make me happy for the rest of my life, I would go for it. (Just as an example: it's not that a Boogie would be on my short list).
Originally Posted by marcwhy
Yes, I can relate to that, but with those guys you never know what will come next, and my current Boss JS-10 is rather immediate. I'd be less confident about its ability to cut through a mix. Originally Posted by 3625
Right, that's exactly what I'm after. Originally Posted by 3625
Pretty good point, actually. Will require some planning. More questions. Originally Posted by 3625
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Our needs sound somewhat similar: low volume home playing with low-idle noise for recording.
If you like a Fender-sounding amp I can wholeheartedly recommend the Allen Chihuahua.
I'm a long time owner of the Sweet Spot which is a Princeton / Deluxe Reverb clone and while the sound is gorgeous, it was impossible to set at very low levels for a good tone. Also there was quite a bit of idle noise when using the amp at such a low volume (because it was meant to be used much louder).
The Chihuahua is lower wattage but also has both a volume & master volume, which means you can actually drive the amp a bit and have a wider sweep of volume control. The idle noise is insanely low. I've never heard a more quiet tube amp.
If you are handy the kits are very affordable or David Allen builds them for a little bit more. The standard Chihuahua has a 10" speaker or if you need a bassier sound you could buy/build the head and get a matching 12" cab.
If none of that is appealing a Roland Cube (solid state), Fender Princeton, or Ibanez TSA15 are worth seeking out. The TSA particularly has a great blackface sound, has switchable wattage, but no reverb.
http://www.allenamps.com/chihuahua.php
http://www.ibanez.co.jp/products/u_a...3&series_id=91
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Keep in mind that part of a big full sound is a big speaker moving a large area of air.
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Heck, you hit the nail on the head! Do you have first-hand experience with the TSA15 at low volumes?? Originally Posted by spiral
This amp climbed to the top of my short list just this morning. Having read a pile of reviews over the past week, my gut reaction on first stumbling on the TSA15 was a feeling of getting slightly over-Ibaenz'ed. But the specs and the reviews made me think twice. My idea would have been to buy the Combo and combine it with an SPL Cabulator for attenuation and perhaps for recording, which would cost me a total of around 900 bucks. I guess the Cabulator would even look great on top of the TSA15, given the approximate color match, and then I have a similar-looking (and feather-light) T-Rex Room Mate somewhere around the apartment, which I could probably delcro to the amp with a good esthetic result.
Neverthless, I'm still totally open to more suggestions, as I certainly haven't made up my mind yet, one of the problems being (since you also mention the Princeton) that I cannot get the video below out of my head. That sound is just so fantastic, and mind you, I generally don't care for Strat sounds. Of course, we're talking 1300 bucks here (it's an FSR with a Celestion Gold) and no Cabulator.
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And what would be a good recipe to make big speakers move loads of air at low volumes? Originally Posted by Woody Sound
(This is a serious question, by the way, I'm not poking fun at you.)
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I've always just used good sounding amps turned down. I'm not sure why there needs to be a special amp just for low volume bedroom playing.
I use a an Acoustic Image Clarus into a Redstone 8" cabinet with a ParaDriver DI providing tube emulation. Or a Princeton Reverb (tubes). I've never had as much luck using small, less good-sounding amps just because they produce less volume at the same number on the volume knob.
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With tubes, I gather, the theory is that they need a challenge lest they fall asleep. Originally Posted by rpguitar
Actually, I did buy an AI Clarus from Ebay a few years back. Still have it, but RE or Redstone cabinets are hard to come by here in Europe, and I have absolutely no idea what other cabinets could be used, given the amp's astronomical output rating. I remember liking the sound of its DI output, but from a generic rather than than guitaristic view. On the other hand, I remember reading somewhere that Pat Martino just uses the DI output of his Clarus into the mixer and then lets the engineer do the rest. Hence my conclusion is that I am just too poor a player to exploit the potential of that amp (even though I tend to perceive a very dry DI-kind of guitar sound with hardly any reverb added as highly appealing in the right hands). This being part of the explanation, or perhaps the whole story, why I'm leaning toward a tube solution. Originally Posted by rpguitar
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The Clarus can accept any cabinet with 2, 4, or 8 ohms rating. It's an acoustic amp really, so that's why I use tube emulation (Paradriver DI) with my electric guitars when I run it. That said, at low volume such nuances are mostly lost, and it will get a very nice, clean/warm tone just as is. Being solid state, you can turn it down to almost nothing. I especially like using a hollow body, and hearing about 80% acoustic sound from the guitar with some remaining "oomph" from the amp.
The Princeton at its lowest usable volume setting is also fine sounding, but I use it less just because I'd rather save it for situations where it shines, like a jam or louder volumes at home.
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Please excuse my ignorane, but do the ratings below indicate that an 8-ohm cabinet capable of handling 100 watts would be OK (ignoring for a moment that I would only be using it at low volumes)? Originally Posted by rpguitar
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For practice it's fine. If you want a good tube amp tone, for recording, at low volume you need to drive the preamp a bit to get the tube compression / distortion you would normally get at a cranked level like you mentioned about your Princeton. Originally Posted by rpguitar
I do indeed (it's the reason i bought it). I also have a clip comparing the TSA15 to my Deluxe Reverb clone, and the TSA15 run through different speaker cabinets (as well as stock). The biggest reason i sold it was because of the lack of built in reverb. It's voiced a little bassy but taking the lower back panel off mostly cures it. It's got a pretty big tone for how little the cabinet is (which is probably why it's voiced bassy). I used it with a spring reverb pedal in the fx loop and thought it sounded great. I don't know what it means to be "over-Ibanez'd". Originally Posted by palindrome
Since you loved the Princeton clip so much, why weren't you interested in the Allen Chihuahua suggestion? It's essentially a handwired Princeton but with a master volume which makes it perfect for recording / home use, as well as the very low self-noise. For that matter, why not get a Princeton Reissue? You can get them for $600 if price is an issue.
Why do you need the SPL Cabulator? The whole point of a small tube amp is so you can get a tube sound "in the air" to record with a mic. Just curious.Last edited by spiral; 10-16-2013 at 01:44 PM.
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I'm an apartment-dweller as well. I just sold my Mesa-Boogie Studio 22 and Roland Jazz Chorus 60 when I got a great deal on a second-hand Carr Mercury.
The Boogie was great, but it was born to be small-but-loud, imho. Only 22 watts, but could sound like 40. And really be singing.
The Carr has a power attenuating circuit that lets you switch it down as low as 1/10 watt. I don't know what others would think, but I'm loving it. Great, glassy Fenderish tones, and I can still be a decent neighbor.
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I am also a ibanez tsa15 h owner and I'm really satisfied. I play it mostly with my 210 enclosure and the amp to sound at low volumes equally good as with high volumes. for low volume I use mostly a ported 1x8 enclosure with a beta 8 speaker. I would strongly recommand to try it and make your own opinion on that thing, since it even sounds good with stock chinese tubes, but I did the wap with quality tubes. I don't think that this amp is a little bit bass heavey, but this is hard to dicuss online.
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I have been on the same quest for tube tone at apartment volume levels for a few years now. I'm looking for the the flexibility to go from mellow jazz through to an edge of break-up blues vibe. I've done digital modelling through monitor speakers, but remain unconvinced. I've tried a number of small amps - the VHT Special 6 was too difficult to tame; the VHT Special 12/20 was so noisy I returned it to Thomann as faulty - they say it wasn't faulty, but generously refunded my money anyway. The Champ 600 was fun and I even bought it a 10" Jensen and re-housed it in a Tweed cabinet, but it ultimately lacked character. I currently have a Blackstar HT-5R for sale on ebay - the gain channel is great if you want lots of overdrive at moderate levels, but the clean channel lacks depth (and a sensible EQ !). I've bid on, and missed, a number of Fender Princetons - I obviously don't want one badly enough - but I suspect if I had one I would still have to rely on pedals for low volume "edginess". There is currently half a plan in my mind to replace the Blackstar, when it sells, with the Ibanez TSA15, so the above posts are interesting.
Surprisingly, however, the amp I keep coming back to is my Bugera V22 - it really has a great clean channel, "mildly on the darkish side and perhaps somewhat tubey in character", which, despite the maximum 22 watts through a 12" speaker, is neighbour-friendly up to about 4 on both the channel and master volumes. To my taste it has more character and depth than many more expensive solutions I have tried. The gain channel can also be used at this level, but even the classic "mild" distortion it produces is a little more dirt than I usually look for and so I tend to go with pedals to break up the clean channel slightly, when required. The only possible technical problem I have found is that at "bedroom levels", although plenty loud enough to my ears, it doesn't seem to excite my SM57 to the same levels and I can only get a very low volume signal into my laptop DAW. I'm still working on this - perhaps it is not a fundamental issue or maybe I need a more sensitive mic.
My GAS keeps telling me I deserve a more expensive amp, but every time I try something new, it doesn't hit the spot like the much-maligned Bugera.
P.S. I don't gig, so can't say anything about the Bugera's ruggedness or volumes above 4 on the dial !
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I'm an apartment dweller, and I have a silverface Princeton Reverb, a Roland Microcube, and something called a Galanti Minuteman (a 60s Valco/Supro 6-ish watt tube, similar to a Vibro-Chanpm but with a 10" speaker). The Microcube on the Vox model setting is kind of the sweet spot for playing quietly enough not bother other people while still getting some tone. The Princeton is loud -- at 2 on the volume the neighbors can hear me. I wouldn't really call it a bedroom amp; it's loud enough for any of the gigs I'm likely to do. The Galanti is not too far behind the Princeton in terms of loudness. I used to have a Champ, and that might fit the bill a bit better, except I never really liked the one I had.
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I got meself an Ampeg GVT 15 class A, single channel combo. Here in Europe there being sold cheap from Thomann.de.
I really like it alot. It has a 12" speaker which has a full bass tone which would permeate through walls, the tone stack is really good as it boosts and cuts bass & treble and the mid control just adds mids from its lowest setting and upwards. I mainly use the 7.5 watt setting with gain half way and volume set for circumstances, nice.
The Ampeg GVT 5 watt combo is really cheap, with pedals it would be a good idea.
If you are in the UK this geezer modifies Bugera V5's http://www.ratvalveamps.com/bugera-v5-combo
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If we're seriously talking about a "bedroom-level" amp, then you could make do with the ZT Lunchbox Jr. which costs all of $150.
When it first came out I thought it sounded much worse than the regular ZT Lunchbox, but I tried it again recently and I bought one. Then I went back and bought a second one a week later - they're that good.
I'm pretty picky about my gear - my main amp is a Mambo 8, I use snotty Blue Chip picks and TI strings and only play luthier-built guitars - but this little ZT Lunchbox Jr. is a gem. Even if you don't like it for your bedroom studio purposes, it's small and cheap enough to justify owning just for the occasional road trip or whatever.Last edited by coolvinny; 10-16-2013 at 05:07 PM.
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A ZT Lunchbox or a small Roland Cube if solid state is what you want.
If you do however want a classy tube tone then the Cornell Romany with four power settings from 10W to 0.05W are hard to beat. Not cheap but a classy little amp.
Might be an idea to develop option 3 and get some decent guitar amp emulation software and some monitors. Be mindful that you might have latency issues depending on your setup.
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There seems to be a lot of love among tube freaks for the low cost Fender super champ xd or x2 as a bedroom and recording amp.
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No mention of a Victoria Regal. Swap out tubes to go from 5 watts to 30 watts. 15 inch speaker may be overkill, but you can swap in a 12 inch speaker or 10 inch fairly easily.
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Pardon my not responding to the latest posts. Unfortunately, I work full time and have to meet a deadline by tomorrow.
Will get back to you during the weekend, and will be reading any more responses with unabated interest.
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Here's some valve options.
http://haydenamps.com/products/1/Amps/2/MoFo/
http://www.hughes-and-kettner.com/pr...r%2018%20Combo (also a 5 watter)
http://www.ampeg.com/products/gvt/
http://www.peavey.com/products/index.cfm/item/0/116598/ (discontinued but findable)
Loads of digital/transistor options too.
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