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To beat a dead horse...
I took the Cremona in to my luthier for a pro setup after deciding the guitar was worth having the bridge fitted to maximize its potential with a pro setup. Picking up the guitar 3 days later I learned the luthier now has an "assistant" helping out with setups, who apparently setup the Cremona.
Not examining the guitar while at the shop, returning home, and to my surprise immediately observed that the bridge is better fitted to the top, it's noticeably lower on the TREBLE side, rather than, what I've commonly observed with bridges being consistently positioned lower on the bass side. This bridge position is the reverse of that. And yes, before you ask, the bridge is not reversed.
I've previously never experienced a pro setup returned with this bridge positioning. The guitar appears to play just fine. It's the appearance that's buggin' me...that and my lack of familiarity with this bridge position.
The guitars scale length is 25 1/2. I brought out my tape measure, and measuring from the nut to the high E string bridge position - it measures precisely 25.75" - Low E string from nut to bridge measures 25 1/2".
The shop is closed until Monday and I'll not get any answers until then. But, in the mean time, who among you finds this odd, or merely common place?
Input welcomed.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-02-2013 at 05:28 PM.
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11-02-2013 03:15 PM
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any pics welcome...
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that's as good a shot as I can get today as it's a dark day out. it's a challenge to see the scope of the treble side angle with the shadow cast by the lighting.
Originally Posted by kris
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Greg, don't complicate the geometry necessary to obtain good playability with obsession over aesthetics. Archtop bridges are user adjustable. Raise the bridge so it looks right to you and see how it plays. Not as good? Lower it back. Trial and error. That's how many of us learned to setup guitars, including plenty of so-called "pros."
Edit: Oh, you mean the angle of the bridge on the top. It's no big deal - I have a few like that. Intonation is set with fixed saddles by angling the bridge such that the outer E strings are intonated. If yours ended up that way, then so be it. Play it.Last edited by rpguitar; 11-02-2013 at 05:30 PM.
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Yes Roger, you nailed it. The fact that I've never had a pro setup result in the bridge angled this direction now has me obsessing with the direction of the angle on the treble side. I've only previously known that angle to be slanted upward on the treble side, not downward. Originally Posted by rpguitar
Okay, to set my mind right I'll simply mark the current setup position with tape, reposition the bridge to 25 3/4 on the bass side, and 25 1/2 on the treble side to see how that effects the tone, and to satisfy my curiosity. What concerned me more than anything was I'd previously read it's common for low E string position of a 25 1/2 scale to be positioned as much as 1/4" lower on the longer low E string. I'd never read anything about the shorter high E string being positioned at 25 3/4".
Thanks again for the assist!
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2b2b, or should that be to 2b2b (Doo, be doo be doodoo!)?
I always measure the top E string to the guitars string length to set the intonation at the bridge, whether it's a floating bridge or a fixed bridge with moveable saddles. It's surprising just how close to being spot on that is.
Then the plain strings saddles step back until a wound string brings the saddle back to almost the same distance as the top E then they step back in sequence.
When I measure the top E I sight the rest.
If that's the way it's been set up I would think the base of the saddle has either been sanded or carved into that position and would not have a true contact to the arch if you try to position it with the treble side being closer to the neck.
Try flipping the base of the bridge but obviously the leaving the saddle part the correct way for the appropriate compensation.
Anyhoo, the apprentice may have been distracted or lazy (or left handed) when he finished off (do you know the tale of the sorcerers apprentice?).
But you've paid good coin so a talk with the organ grinder is the better course of action.
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How is the intonation? It's not out of the ordinary to have a slight angle to get the intonation just right but I've never seen one angled that much.
Could you take an even closer picture of the bridge. I'd like to see the grooves on the bridge itself.Last edited by AlainJazz; 11-02-2013 at 06:44 PM.
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Pretty high string action at the treble side, huh? 3mm at 12th fret? And pretty low action at bass side? 1.0mm at 12th fret?
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-02-2013 at 06:40 PM.
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Since I "paid coin" to fit the bridge I'd rather not flip it. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
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It's the only metric ruler in the house, but no, it seems barely 1.5 mm at the 12th on either side: Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Treble
Bass
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-02-2013 at 08:27 PM.
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A good way to measure action height is to use guitar picks placed between the fret and string, eg. a single 1.5mm, or a 1.0 stacked on top of a 1.5 etc.
Do you have a tuner that measures the cents in numbers? I've got a seiko that does that, it's great for working out how accurate your intonation is across the neck (open, 5th f, 9th f, 12th etc.), a simple 'green' or 'red' light doesn't cut it with me, especially for jazz where you're always playing across the neck. With wooden bridges it's often a compromise, the angle he put it at probably made 2 strings better intonated while making another worse (perhaps?) and so it goes, back and forth. My2c
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Most of my archtops are either straight or slightly angled as yours is, treble side down. My Ibanez AF is the most pronounced:
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Usually, the action at the bass side is higher than the treble side, say, 2.5mm bass string action, 1.5mm treble string action.
This could be part of the reason why your bridge is positioned the way it is. Someone please correct me if I am off-base; the bridge is intonated to allow for the stretch of the string when it is fretted. The string action determines the amount the string stretches when it is fretted.
So, when your bass string action is at the same level as the treble side or lower, coupled with the compensation already cut into the wooden saddle for the six strings, you get the situation that you find yourself in: the bridge being tilted "the other way".
It is not wrong, of course although it looks unconventional.
That said, I think that the scale length of your Cremona is probably longer than 25.5". The scale length is probably in metric and measures 650mm scale length. Being made in Korea, it should not be surprising that it has a metric scale length. 25.5" is about 647.7mm. 25.75" translates to 654.05mm which is about correct for 1.5mm string action at the 12th fret.
As for the bass side being right on the nose at 25.5" a bass string being coarser stretches less than the treble string and given the low string action of 1.5mm, the bridge position almost matches scale length.
Other factors come into play. It is my guess that your treble string gauge is thin (0.10?) compared to the flatwound bass E string.
If you raise the bass string action at the 12th fret to 2.5mm and raise the treble string gauge to 0.12, you may find that the bridge will now go back to looking "normal".
It is just an educated guess so don't shoot me if I am wrong. (Probably a bad joke given the recent shooting at LAX.)
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By the way, the proper way of measuring string action is to fret the string at the first fret and measure at the 12th from the bottom of the string to the crown of the fret.
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FWIW: Dan Erlewine's book on electric guitar setup (How to Make Your Electric Guitar Play Great) has a recommended "baseline" setup for archtops: 3/32" on the base side and 1/16" on the treble side. The measurement is taken at the highest fret. I recently used this and then tweaked in it to my taste. The base side is still a hair higher than the treble.
Yes, to set the intonation as close as possible (on my Broadway with JS-111's), the bridge is tilted a tad towards the tailpiece on the treble side. Check your intonation with a decent tuner or, if you have Droid phone or tablet, try Pitch Lab.Last edited by Alder Statesman; 11-02-2013 at 10:15 PM. Reason: clarification
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Doesn't look quite right to me. Treble side in my experience with archtops should be just inwards slightly of 25.5 inches, unless the scale is off slightly to begin with. Originally Posted by rpguitar
The fact that the treble side of the bridge is sanded isn't the issue, that could have been done to lower the
action of the treble strings. As long as there is sufficient wood left in the base part of the bridge and it is
curved so that the two feet match the archtop correctly, it should be ok.
The question is then. Is the intonation set correctly at that angle between the fundamental 12 fret note on the high
E, which should be an e and the 1st harmonic of that string. Same with the b string and there needs to be some
compensation on the bridge for the B string and the G string as well.
here is an example of an Broadway Elitist with the archtop bridge angled correctly for string compensation:
Attachment 9294Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-02-2013 at 10:02 PM.
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Thanks, but I can end the backseat guitar tech speculation with one sentence:
All of my guitars are set up with excellent intonation (measured and adjusted by me).
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Ok, if it is truly a 25.5 scale then even with a compensated wooden bridge saddle, there has to be a minor adjustment for intonation.
The only way to know for sure the EXACT POSITION of the treble side (b/e) vs the bass side e/a; is
to move the bridge slightly at an angle, while the guitar is tuned perfectly to standard pitch, and test the fundamental note at the 12th fret vs the open string harmonic picked off at the 12th fret, if you can do that.
IF the harmonic on the high e is SHARPER than the 12th fret note..the intonation is OFF and the treble side of the
bridge has to be moved back towards the TP about 1/16 of an inch at a time, then retest again.
IF the harmonic on the high e is FLATTER than the 12th fret note, then the intonation is OFF,
and the treble side of the bridge has to be moved forward of base 25.5" fret scale, towards the pickguard.
Repeat as many times as necessary (moving no more than 1/16th of an inch at a time) until the 12 fret note played AND the harmonic picked off at exactly the 12fret (open string and not fretted) sound EXACTLY the same in pitch. That way the strings fundamental note at the 12th fret
and the 1st harmonic are exactly 1/2 the distance of the vibrating string from the nut
to the compensated bridge saddle.
Same for the bass side of the bridge..usually with the bass strings being wound, the intonation there requires the bridge to be angled towards the TP.Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-02-2013 at 10:44 PM.
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Photo explanations...they're the best for setup newbs! That's like painting by numbers man! Originally Posted by rpguitar
Okay thanks. When the light returns tomorrow morning I'll try another measurement. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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I don't mean to contradict you, Jab, but 12th fret string action height is measured with an open string.
The first fret is used in another measurement, that being neck relief. You press simultaneously on the 1st and 14th frets, then examine clearance over the 6th fret (and its neighbors). Sometimes people use a capo on the 1st fret to make this easier, but I don't bother. Left hand index on 1st, right hand ring finger on 14th. And I don't measure, because it's such a small distance. I inspect and "bounce" the string against the frets to see how much play there is.
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I come from playing classical guitars and this was how I was taught to measure string action at the 12th fret, by holding the first fret down.
David Schramm explains it well here: Quote.
Action on Spanish Guitars
by schrammguitars » Mar 25 13, 10:50 am
It is important to measure action by fretting the string that is to be measured at the first fret, then measure the action. Otherwise you are including the nut set-up which isn't standardized or in a fixed height position like the first fret. When giving action heights you should include which method of meauring you use, the open string method or the first fret method. The difference could be as much as .5mm! I prefer the first fret method. It is more accurate and consistant IMO. Unquote.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-02-2013 at 11:30 PM.
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I respect that. And it goes to show that there is no ONE way to do anything. I think nut set up absolutely should be included in the equation - it's as important as bridge/saddle height and contributes a ton to comfort (or lack thereof).
I don't have any famous people to quote on the open string action measurement, but just Google it... nobody ever seems to mention the first fret.
Anyway, this quote sums it up best to me (italics are mine):
"The actual height is irrelevant, what matters is the effect that height has on the playability of the guitar and that's easily measured without ever knowing the actual height of the strings. Besides, there is no definitive action, it's different for all guitars and also all guitarists, some players like insanely low action, others hate that and would prefer to be able to drive a train under the strings, most people are somewhere in the middle."Last edited by rpguitar; 11-02-2013 at 11:51 PM.
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That bridge placement looks so, so wrong. Are the fret spacings so out of temper that it takes this extreme angle to get correct intonation? Yikes!
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RP's got it right. Originally Posted by rpguitar
@2b: thanks for the pic. I still don't know however if the intonation is ok. Someone mentioned using a tuner that measures in cents. This is definitely the best way to check. If you don't have one and you have an iPhone/iPad , The Peterson strobe tuner app is great and a bargain at about 8$.
If the intonation is indeed fine, I would just leave it that way until you find a really good tech to figure out what's wrong. Could be the nut, or even a truss rod adjustment.
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