How to get a poor man's Tal Farlow sound?

[losaltosjoe]

Many old Japanese L-5CES copies w/long scale should get you close. 99% of them are all-laminated.

- Yamaha made the AE-11, AE-12 and AE-18, which preceded the AE-1200 series by a few years. Cheap when you find them. Not sure of the scale. Very good laminated 17" archtop guitars.

- cheaper and crappier are early Japanese L-5CES copies labeled Ventura, Raven, Conrad (and more, I'm sure); these make excellent platforms for improvement. Not sure of the scale on these. They look like they all came from the same factory in the 1960s.

I spotted this on eBay today (I'm not the seller):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/80s-Yamaha-A..._qi=RTM1562569

Make: Yamaha
Model: AE 1200S
Body sides: Laminate Maple
Body back: Laminate Maple
Body top: Solid Spruce
Fretboard: Ebony
Neck coutour: Radius 13-3/4
Frets: 20
Neck inlays: Mother of Pearl
Scale length: 25-1/2"
Width at nut: 1-11/16"

I have no clue if it will help you sound like TF. :-)

[jads57]

Ebay has a Cherry Burst H-550 listed for $1750 at the moment!

[3625]

Latterly Tal was endorsing D'Addario (probably Chromes) strings and using Dunlop Jazz picks.

Re: picks - I know he used to use Fenders - so are saying he used jazz iii's as well? I find that interesting because I've never heard that before. Did you read that somewhere, or found out from someone? Cheers

[pubylakeg]

Hi 3625
Tal was actually using these when I saw him in 95. You could see one slotted between his strings at the headstock. Additionally the UK magazine "Guitarist" interviewed Tal and Mundell Lowe during the same visit and the photos of Tal in the mag showed the same picks again at the headstock. They're that unmistakeable shiny red plastic. BTW .There's also a fairly well known publicity pic of Tal from the 70's which IIRC was also on the inlay card to the CD "Chromatic Palette" where Tal has standard Gibson plecs slotted through his strings. I think that pic was also printed as a blow up in Guitar Player magazine when they printed Tal's obituary. You can see them quite clearly.
Just as an aside, on that tour Tal had the same TF signature model he used in the Hot Licks video, a vintage sunburst one with a rosewood bridge.(No Tune o Matic). Perhaps to the OP that might also contribute to Tal's tone.
Years ago I remember reading a letter in GP magazine where somebody had asked Tal if he could play Tal's prototype signature model after one of Tal's gigs. The letter writer said the frets were so worn as to be almost non existent and the writer felt it was in serious need of a setup. Tal's attitude was I'm used to it, I just play it.
I'll post this too because it might be of interest. It's a pretty good representation of how he played latterly.
It's always a pleasure to exchange tales of the Legendary Tal Farlow.

[vinlander]

not to be the contrarian but, this is the first occurrence that i can recall when people were praising Tal Farlow's tone.

...

his tone reminded struck me like someone scratching on a blackboard, but that's just me. it always sounded boxy. heavy strings, and electrified pounding on a cardboard box.
...

Well I guess it is very subjective and that is a reason why there are so many different tones and way of playing.
I happen to dig THAT tone very much, doesn't mean I don't like Kessel's, Pass, Wes's or others more "typical".
For some reason that percussiveness almost xylophone like is cool to my ears.
Even my wife who is absolutally not a jazz connoisseur, like his tone over the aforementionned but that is still subjective.

Like someone said before no one sound like TF and the thread is mostly about what could help getting close to his tone, not his chops

[pubylakeg]

I always say that it's more about the player than the gear, and coincidentally, I couldn't illustrate the case better than by comparing Tal's tone on the ES-350 with CC pickup to Barney Kessel's tone on an ES-350 with a CC pickup. Plus Tal was always instantly recognisable regardless of which guitar (of many) he was playing. However, I'm not seeking to denigrate the OP's question in any way at all. In fact I'm very curious as to how to approximate many different players type of tones, Tal's no exception. It helps to inform the decision making process in selecting/purchasing eqpt.
Something I've wondered about ( but haven't taken the time to research) is if Tal recorded on the ES-350 whilst it was still fitted with the stock P-90. Maybe some sharp eared Tal fans might care to comment.

[3625]

Hi 3625
Tal was actually using these when I saw him in 95. You could see one slotted between his strings at the headstock. Additionally the UK magazine "Guitarist" interviewed Tal and Mundell Lowe during the same visit and the photos of Tal in the mag showed the same picks again at the headstock. They're that unmistakeable shiny red plastic. BTW .There's also a fairly well known publicity pic of Tal from the 70's which IIRC was also on the inlay card to the CD "Chromatic Palette" where Tal has standard Gibson plecs slotted through his strings. I think that pic was also printed as a blow up in Guitar Player magazine when they printed Tal's obituary. You can see them quite clearly.
Just as an aside, on that tour Tal had the same TF signature model he used in the Hot Licks video, a vintage sunburst one with a rosewood bridge.(No Tune o Matic). Perhaps to the OP that might also contribute to Tal's tone.
Years ago I remember reading a letter in GP magazine where somebody had asked Tal if he could play Tal's prototype signature model after one of Tal's gigs. The letter writer said the frets were so worn as to be almost non existent and the writer felt it was in serious need of a setup. Tal's attitude was I'm used to it, I just play it.
I'll post this too because it might be of interest. It's a pretty good representation of how he played latterly.
It's always a pleasure to exchange tales of the Legendary Tal Farlow.

Thanks for the reply - in the still shot for the youtube clip above, even though the picks are red they look like 351's not jazz iii's, or even jazz iii's XL's. That is the 351 shape most commonly used by fender, but also everyone else including Dunlop. The brand logo looks fuzzy, but I wonder if that's the Dunlop logo for either tortex or delrin?

Tal's late period tone was obviously quite different to his classic 50's sound (not to mention 50's era recording equipment which colours the tone significantly). His late period sound seems to be thinner in terms of single line, but well balanced for chord melody - very clear with not much bass. I like both.

[jzucker]

practice

[pubylakeg]

I'll have to see if I still have that copy of Guitarist.

[John A.]

Very interested in the above posts. I suspect Tal's chair actually contained his amp.

It definitely did. I saw him once, and heard the chair up close. I'm not sure if the chair was carved or laminated, though.

John

[vinlander]

I am considering doing the butchering of my Epi Regent this weekend, but still a little bit unsure about the exact placement for my classic 57. On the TF model I had always spotted the pickup just under the 22nd fret mostly flush with the neck base until recently where I see inconsistencies...
Additonal information, I already prepared my harness using a 310k linear volume and 540K audio for tone with a 22uF orange drop cap hoping to get close to the Gibson spec (even if it might not be the best).
Some archtops like the ES 175 seems to put the neck pup under the 24th fret giving a different tone than closer to the neck.
Considering the top of the Regent is not maple like a TF or ES175 and usually spruce is softer and smoother (even as a laminated), would I get closer to my goal by putting the pup closer to the 24th fret or should I stick to the neck base area and put it under the 22nd fret ?
I am asking because I realized lately some TF seems to have the neck pup under the 23rd fret...
From looking on the net and that forum some people modded their Regent with CC pup and rarely put them directly by the neck.

In any case any input or advise on that would be appreciated since I have only 1 chance of cutting the top

[vinlander]

Nice guitar synsonics, also the PM2 in your profile.
Always interesting these DIY, I upgraded electronics in a Sheraton II in the past despite the difficulty of fishing the harness through the narrow F holes but it was worth it.
The key I guess is preparation, patience and to ask for advice and here we get to learn a lot just by reading what the pros have to say

[GoergeBenson]

I would have thought Tals tone would be easily achievable.

He used a laminate maple 17 bout guitar with the reverb turned down. If anything I always disliked his tone (but thats just a personal thing).

So yeh a thick reverbless tone should be easy to achieve. Heavy flatwound strings, a laminate maple topped guitar of the bigger size, a hum bucker for fatness and no reverb.

Job done :-)

[oldane]

The one danger (the only big one?) when installing a PU into the top of an acoustic archtop is the risk of cutting the braces thereby weakening the top so it may eventually sag due to the string pressure. And of course, the acousic sound of the guitar will almost certainly suffer.

[vinlander]

The one danger (the only big one?) when installing a PU into the top of an acoustic archtop is the risk of cutting the braces thereby weakening the top so it may eventually sag due to the string pressure. And of course, the acousic sound of the guitar will almost certainly suffer.

Yeah, I know someone who had to cut the braces to make room for a CC but for a regular humbucker I might get lucky and have room without cutting. In any case I will be very careful and will also take pictures of the whole process to help future folk who might try the same

[jasonc]

Hey Vinlander, before you go putting a hole in the top of your guitar let give you tip on finding the braces. Go to a hardware store and pick up some small rare earth magnets. With the strings off put down some low tack finish-friendly tape and mark exactly where you propose to route the cavity. Now with the magnets you get one inside between the braces and the other outside (they will hold together with the top in between). Holding the outside magnet run it along the braces where your going to route and it will show you whether or not the braces run under your route and it will show you before you route. Hope that helps.

[synsonics]

No braces were harmed during the D'Angelico conversion. The pickup "ears" just fit without going into them. Acoustic tone is the same. Really! These have a big loud acoustic sound.

If they made a model like this I would have bought it. Heritage made a one humbucker D'Angelico that looked like what I was looking for. Anyone know what happened that one? The Korean D'A is a well made guitar that deserved more action than that old fart floater (sorry!) could deal out. Anyway I got the guitar in a straight swap for my Eastman which was complete junk.

It could have been a complete disaster.

It was a snap.

Looking forward to seeing how the Epiphone turns out.
It'll probably get a lot of people wanting one!

[vinlander]

Yeah it is a thread about TF tone, to be honest it is the first time I hear about that over stretching of strings. I always stretch them a bit in the process of string swapping but never to that extent.
Tal had a very particular tone, sometime its like no sustain whatsoever and very percussive but still warm and woody. Apparently some recordings of him were not even involving an amp but directly recorded in the system, don't know if it was truly the case however. I particularly like when he plays some higher runs and finish them on that fat lower string pluck still bright and not blanket covered.
I will try that stretching trick next time I install a new set

[pubylakeg]

Hey Vin,
Nice to see the thread still going. I'm noticing a few people mentioning the dead string thing in Tal and Billy Bean's tones.
If that's your goal, I'd recommend Rotosound Top Tape flats. Only come in 12-52 gauge. They're pretty cheap too.

[GoergeBenson]

Oh it's a Tal Farlow Tone thread! Two words: Dead Strings. "But hey synsonics, I just got these flats and theyre sooo bright sounding". Well you can "Tal" your strings in no time. How about TI 13's or Chromes or whatever.

1. String 'em up
2. Do not trim the excess string all the way, leave a couple of inches
3. Tune em up 2 full steps higher than normal tuning, stretching, pulling and re-tuning as you go.
4. Remove the strings completely
5. Re-string the guitar to normal tuning.
6. Brag to uninterested family and friends about how you "cracked" the Tal-TONE.
This works with any amp.

Something about removing and replacing stretches the strings out in weird way.
Especially TI's I've noticed.

I'm not 100% certain but it sounds like your technique puts a lot of stress on the neck and guitar as a whole. You should rarely if ever remove all the strings from a guitar. Instead you should change each string at a time.

If your Truss Rod is also tight, I wouldn't want to stress the neck by running each string up 2 full steps.
Strings go dull after about 2 weeks of good use (maybe less), so why not just play them in naturally?

Tal's tone came from heavy strings, no reverb, a laminate maple guitar (with two pickups). Essentially what I'm saying is, his tone was pretty dead.

[vinlander]

Thank you for the hint on the rotosound pubylakeg, I will check that out, I really like a bit heavier string however, Chromes 13-56 is what I like best so far, little bit bright at first but then after a while they fatten to my ears...
Regarding TF "dead tone" or dead strings, well I dig it, as boxy and percussive as it can be, I am not a huge fan of reverb neither, good he was not using much. I also happen to like Bean's tone on the Trio revisited, no wonder they share a similarity even if not the same guitar...
This noon I could test my newly routed Regent that now should be called single pup Broadway, or Epi laminated Wesmo and to be honest I am quite happy with the result as I get a fatter tone than any floater I tried could get me so far.
It is still not as percussive as I would have wanted, but I guess that I have to live with the fact it is a spruce top and not as tight as a maple one. Nonetheless now I feel like it will get more play time "plugged" than before and the good thing is it still sounds good unplugged too.

[vinlander]

After 5 months of playing my Tal, I can officially rest my case regarding my Tal tone quest.

There were great suggestions in that thread, some I could experiment and some not.
I did not want to invest money in another cheap platform; was defying the purpose.
The whole thing was entertaining with the Emp Regent though: routing a pickup through the top, swapping the classic 57 to a VV HCC, changing electronics, going heavier and heavier on the string gauge.
Made a good honest unimpressive sounding instrument in its own, but hardly sounding like the real deal.
It can get some thunk or should I say more like "dung" but lacking the nice warm and woody percussiveness.
The 25.5 scale and the VV HCC truly helped the bass strings definition but was still lacking in overtones...
Sounds was still thin and bright despite the defined bass element, "sterile" might be the word: something I hear a lot on cheaper Asian imports.
Ok the Regent was probably not the right platform the begin with, some laminated maple top 17 inches bout like from Peerless or better an Heritage H550 would have been much closer but we were getting out of the Poor Man's zone.
When I played my first chords and single notes line on the Tal, I was like, that's it, was even obvious to my wife and the size of my smile was also telling a lot.
Wait a second, it was a humbucker classic 57, same wiring spec I used on the Regent and was strung with light 12-50...it could not be so much closer to Tal 50s single coil tone...but it was!
Might be a modern take on the classic ES 350 with the CC but still, the biggest part of what is shaping the tone is there.
Guitar construction and wood seem truly the main elements in that thick warm woodiness.
I needed to use the blanket knob on the Regent as it was still too bright but was loosing note definition.
On the Tal, I can keep the tone knob to 10 and let it sing fully opened without any tone filter.
Sounds as good in my flat EQed amp as straight in the mixer and living room sound system.
That tells a lot about what is a good quality sounding instrument on its own.
I feel no need to tinker anything anymore, except giving maybe a chance to Rotosound Monel out of curiosity not because of a lack of...

Bottom line, based on my personal experience, there is hardly a poor man's way in getting a tone so specific.
Better save and get the real deal.
OK a 1947 CC equipped ES350 might not be for everyone's budget and if a 60s Tal is still also out of range, a good used Tal will get you there...

[lawson-stone]

I have another method for sounding exactly like a particular player.

First, want to sound like that player lots.
Second, STOP wanting to sound like that player, and instead, get aggravated at the player's sound and start wanting to sound like someone else.

In failing to sound like Player 2, you likely will start sounding like Player 1, whose sound you now hate.

I didn't say you'd be happy with the outcome.

[GNAPPI]

After 5 months of playing my Tal, I can officially rest my case regarding my Tal tone quest. Bottom line, based on my personal experience, there is hardly a poor man's way in getting a tone so specific. Better save and get the real deal. >>SNIP<<

I'll bet lots of players have thought of trying that with other guitars! I agree whole heartedly that if you want TF tone get the real deal however...

I'll admit that I have a couple of guitars that while they don't sound the same as my TF, they are different and I wouldn't part with them.

But, the TF tone "mystique" moves me... a LOT.

So, taking a less radical (actually cheap and quicker) approach than you I decided to do some direct comparisons with my TF and a couple of other faves with my Boss ME-33 multi effects pedal (which I use for EQ and reverb) and the Tal Farlow all using the neck pup only.

With the Boss in BYPASS (guitar native sound to the amp which is a little Fender champion 110 with a GIGANTIC vintage EV 10" in it) I played the TF a while, then plugged in my D'Angelico EXS-1DH with Kent Armstrong pups.

The first glaring thing I noticed was the TF is brighter (neck pup only) than the D'A by a bit and louder. THAT was a surprise! Somehow I had it in my mind that the Armstrong pickups were brighter :-)

With the D'A plugged in and the boss in "emulate" mode (my word not that of Boss) I started tweaking the volume, and EQ on the boss and went back and forth between the TF plugged in with the Boss in bypass mode and the D'Angelico in emulate mode. I came up with some surprising results.

The three main settings (the three default pedal buttons on power up) I've used for a while in the emulate mode on the Boss turned out to be crap. I mean really crap!

Getting a TF tone was as expected elusive but I finally got some pretty impressive new sounds.

After that I've found a touch of the tone knob on the git and I can get an envelope I was not accustomed to in my D'A. The D'A body being smaller and having a spruce top for sure is not going to give the same acoustic influence as the TF, but I'm very pleased that I took the time to do it.

My ES-150 (double cut 68) also benefitted quite a bit from these diddlings.

[vinlander]

I have another method for sounding exactly like a particular player.

First, want to sound like that player lots.
Second, STOP wanting to sound like that player, and instead, get aggravated at the player's sound and start wanting to sound like someone else.

In failing to sound like Player 2, you likely will start sounding like Player 1, whose sound you now hate.

I didn't say you'd be happy with the outcome.

I understand your point, but for me there is a difference between achieving a certain tone and fully sounding like a particular player. When for instance DB plays his Tal Farlow he sounds like himself and man can he play, still there is that un mistakenly classic Tal thing going on and that is definitely enhanced by the TF guitar...
Then you have a guy like Dan Axelrod who at 20 could mimic Tal Farlow note for note and am not even sure he was playing a TF probably not even...