Chambered Solid Body Guitars

**Toat** · 02-10-2014, 05:02 PM

I think we will all agree that any chambered solid body is primarily an electric instrument and MUCH much less influenced by its acoustic properties than top quality archtops. Benedetto chose to do mahogany body and spruce top on their chambered solid body (the benny).

My question then is do you think it really makes a difference that the top is spruce, or would it sound roughly the same if it was a maple or mahogany top?

**jzucker** · 02-10-2014, 05:32 PM

yes it makes a difference. The spruce top guitars have a more open/transparent sheen in the top end. The maple guitars tend to have more upper midrange and a thicker sustain to the tone.

One thing that I'm finding pretty late in life is that a non-potted pickup makes a huge difference. The non-potted pickups pickup the acoustic sounds of the instrument and not just the magnetic ones.

**Jim Soloway** · 02-10-2014, 05:32 PM

Having built a few hundred of them ... it absolutely makes a difference (or at least it certainly did for us).

**Toat** · 02-10-2014, 05:37 PM

Ok ok so the real reason I ask is I want to order a carvin semi-hollow that's a dedicated jazz axe. Should I follow the benny's lead then and get a spruce top?

**jzucker** · 02-10-2014, 05:46 PM

i would personally question that decision based on the carvins that i've owned and played...

**PTChristopher2** · 02-10-2014, 05:54 PM

And to pile on, then diverge into vague ramnbling...

I started out in my late teens building a small run of four chambered solid bodies. The bodies were all mahogany with identical chambering. The tops were 2 mahogany and two maple. They were clearly different in sound based on the tops.

I have never made a spruce topped chambered mahogany body, but I would certainly expect a notable character from the light weight top despite the (arguably) general limited character of a chambered body.

As for pickups and microphonics:

In my opinion, strings vibrate in a number of ways.

There is the primary vibration of an arc at the full active length of the vibrating string (so from the fretted point to the bridge).

Then there are the standing wave harmonics like the octave (1/2 the vibrating length), as well as harmonics at 1/3, 1/4, etc. of the vibrating length.

Then there are traveling (not necessarily "transient") waves that travel up and down the length of the string.

There are also transient (and often atonal) vibrations that ring out on attack but die quickly.

AND, there are also "longitudinal" waves that are very low in amplitude but stretch and compress the string. These are a tiny component of the sound, but as you can maybe imagine are easily transmitted to the top, but almost impossible for a magnetic PU to pick-up.

In my opinion, it is the transient and longitudinal waves that we note as the "acoustic" character in attack that is mostly lost through a magnetic PU.

VERY broadly speaking (well typing really), an un-potted PU will react, at least to a small extent, to the transient and longitudinal waves more so that a potted PU.

All in my opinion. Although the waves pretty much exist with no regard for my thoughts about them.

As you may imagine, when you alter your pick attack, you change the relationship of the (arguably) 5 different types of vibrations - emphasizing some and de-emphasizing others. The transient and longitudinal vibrations are subject to an incredible variety by the players attack.

And to really go over the cliff into the extremely dull - You could argue for far more than my 5 types of vibrations. But I think lumping together some of the very low amplitude ones makes a sort of sense.

Chris

**jads57** · 02-10-2014, 05:56 PM

I'll try to add my 2 cents here as well as a player. Of the semi hollow guitars I've owned over the years here are my observations.
Mahogany/Spruce top set neck design: warm and bright but softer attack
Mahogany/Maple top set neck design:: warm and bright but harder attack and a bit more sustain.

As far as unpotted p/ups goes what Jack Z is probably correct, but becareful about playing too loud, especially w/ overdrive. I've almost always run into a squeal situation w/ my treble p/up. If you don't play loud probably not an issue.

Other considerations for tone are scale length, fretboard wood, and bridge choices

**Toat** · 02-10-2014, 06:11 PM

I like "more upper midrange and a thicker sustain" description better than the "open/transparent sheen in the top end" description that another poster used. To use my own adjectives, I like a thick, round, BIG, honkey clean tone as far as my single note solo tone.

Would you say a maple top might be better for me than spruce? What about mahogany?

Also I was planning on a running a Benedetto humbucker in the neck, and this will be a neck pickup only guitar.

**Jim Soloway** · 02-10-2014, 06:31 PM

Bearing in mind that I don't know anything about the way you play, yes that sounds to me like a maple top would be a better choice.

**jzucker** · 02-10-2014, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

As far as unpotted p/ups goes what Jack Z is probably correct, but becareful about playing too loud, especially w/ overdrive. I've almost always run into a squeal situation w/ my treble p/up. If you don't play loud probably not an issue.

It's not volume that causes squeal. It's gain though I suppose if you are playing at 120db you probably will get squeal also. I found that i had to be really loud and running with 2 overdrive units on to get any kind of squeal out of my non potted pickups. I think in today's world of having to play quieter and clubs not letting you get your full marshall-stack on, it's not a big issue.

**jzucker** · 02-10-2014, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Toat

Well I like "more upper midrange and a thicker sustain" description better than the "open/transparent sheen in the top end" description that another poster used. To use my own adjectives, I like a thick, round, BIG, honkey clean tone as far as my single note solo tone.

Would you say a maple top might be better for me than spruce? What about mahogany?
Also I was planning on a running a Benedetto humbucker in the neck, and this will be a neck pickup only guitar.

I would go play a 335 or 339. That's going to give you a good idea of how that'll sound. Harder to try a semi hollow spruce top guitar in most local shops.

The maple top will also give you more of the pat metheny / adam rogers, thunky tone.

**John A.** · 02-10-2014, 08:44 PM

I had a chambered-body, maple topped guitar (Les Paul Studio DC) for many years (just sold it a few months ago). It sounds like a solidbody. There's no discernible hollow-ness to the tone. Which Carvin are you thinking of? The semis I see on their site seem to have 20mm thick tops (thicker than a Les Paul, I think), which doesn't strike me as offering much in the way of acoustic-ness,

John

**jzucker** · 02-10-2014, 09:07 PM

the les paul dc does have a hollow character to the tone. Maybe not like an archtop but there's definitely a difference in the "air".

Although 20mm is pretty thick. Are you sure about that measurement?

**John A.** · 02-10-2014, 09:14 PM

I owned a Les Paul DC for about 15 years. I disagree that there's any hollowness to the tone (at least not in the one I had). The bridge PU tone is indistinguishable from a regular LP. The neck tone is a little different, but I think that's because of the 24-fret neck. As to the Carvin, this is the page I was referring to.

Custom Shop USA Guitars | KieselGuitars.com

Every one of those has a 20mm top, but there might be other variants with thinner tops.

John

**Toat** · 02-10-2014, 09:18 PM

Ok if you must, its a headless holdsworth were talking about :P
I don't know the top thickness, but I would guess it's consistent with the rest of carvins semis. Do you know the thickness of the top on the benny? Sorry to keep bringing it up, I just highly respect benedetto to have done it right when they designed it.

**jzucker** · 02-10-2014, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

I owned a Les Paul DC for about 15 years. I disagree that there's any hollowness to the tone (at least not in the one I had). The bridge PU tone is indistinguishable from a regular LP. The neck tone is a little different, but I think that's because of the 24-fret neck. As to the Carvin, this is the page I was referring to.

http://www.carvinguitars.com/customs...wcarvedtop.php

Every one of those has a 20mm top, but there might be other variants with thinner tops.

John

we'll have to agree to disagree on the les paul dc. I can hear the diff.

Regarding the carvin, I have to believe the top was 20mm before carving . Otherwise the guitar would weigh 15lbs

**jads57** · 02-10-2014, 09:42 PM

My suggestion after owning 2 of those both regular and Fatboy, I don't think the top will contribute that much difference to the overall recipe. I'd opt for all alder construction for both cheaper cost and tone as well. Also the p/up that comes stock in those are very good. The Benedetto is simply a Seymour Duncan Alnico 5 higher wind 8-9k and not worth the extra $ in my opinion.
Jack Z, I'm not sure where you gig at such a quiet volume. But I'll guarantee you that I play 1x12" 50 watt combo at moderate levels and still have problems w/ non potted humbuckers. This is not a single time occurance, but more likely than not. And we're talking Seymour Duncan, Manilus, other boutique makers as well. Congratualtions on finding great non squealers!

**Toat** · 02-10-2014, 09:52 PM

This is exactly why I veiled my question a bit. Talk about any other chambered solid body: "Oh yeah the top wood makes all the difference in the world." Talk about a Carvin chambered solid body: "Nope top wood won't make a different get what's cheapest."

Now that makes no sense, explain yourself(selves).

**jzucker** · 02-10-2014, 10:19 PM

I've been using non potted pickups for 10 years and playing EXTREMELY loud with out ever having pickup squeal unless i'm stacking overdrives with fuzz

my buddy plays in an extremely loud blues band and hates potted pickups and he plays with tons of gain and it never squeals. He's a guitar tech also and was the first guy who "hipped" me to potted pickups "killing" tone.

IMO, potting is just dimarzio/duncan hype. Valid when folks were playing through big marshalls . Of course, everyone's playing situation is different but that's my experience with them.

**Klatu** · 02-10-2014, 10:55 PM

Which unpotted pickup do you prefer? The only one I have experience with is the Duncan Seth Lover in my Eastman T186.

**Philco** · 02-10-2014, 10:56 PM

I have no experience with un potted pups but I think jack has a valid point. Very valid.
This whole potted pickup thing is a hang over from the rock approach……..when we played REALLY loud.

What in the world are jazz players doing with potted pups? Surely anything we can do to promote the body sound of the instrument is a good thing….or at least gives us more sound palette to mess with.

I actually love the more electric sound of the 50's jazz players but those guys had a certain "plum" or round tone and I'm betting it came from the instruments acoustic qualities. I mean you can't eq that sound in. It has to be part of the DNA of the guitar.
I think I'll start experimenting with this.
Hey Jack do you know of pup manufacturers who don't pot?

**PTChristopher2** · 02-10-2014, 11:01 PM

It would be handy if terms like "nitro" and "potting" carried fairly specific meanings. In my opinion they do not.

I have seen "potted" PUs that had no more than a slight wax coating that inhibited a bit of cover vibration. I have also cut apart PUs that were completely saturated with what looked to be epoxy, locking everything together.

It is, in my opinion, necessary to really identify the degree of "potting".

I am very much of the opinion that microphoninc response in a PU has an effect on "tone" (to use the tone quackery word), but it is a significant leap to say that undefined "potting" will be a "tone killer".

The sort of half-hearted wax potting in many PUs really would only keep the cover from being a significant squeal source.

All in my opinion.

EDIT: In a jazz volume context, I think that the only practical advantage of potting would be to reduce the amplified volume of pick strikes on the PU cover. But probably better to work on the setup and playing technique to not have such strikes in the first place.

Chris

**jads57** · 02-10-2014, 11:09 PM

Toat, I don't mean to sound flippant but I found that on such a small hollow body the type of wood will not have as dramatic effect on your tone. Sure all maple or possibly walnut, zebra wood maybe. But there are many other considerations in the Alan Holdsworth guitars that effect the tone. I personally could never get a decent Jazz tone on any 24 fret guitar I owned Carvin or Parker,etc. The std Holdworth was one of the best lead tones I ever had though!
I've found that I like a 14" or larger body to feel most comfortable w/ how it feels and reacts. I will make an exception for thinline Tele's however.

**jzucker** · 02-10-2014, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Klatu

Which unpotted pickup do you prefer? The only one I have experience with is the Duncan Seth Lover in my Eastman T186.

my favorites are the fralin unbuckers but for an archtop I really like the schaller Golden 50 pickups that heritage used to use. I'm not sure if the newer ones are still unpotted. My heritage eagle is from 1991 and the pickups sound fabulous and very woody. The potted Duncan 59s sound electronic by comparison. I'd like to hear the seth lovers again. On a hamer I played many years ago, I thought they were muddy sounding but it'd be cool to hear them again.

The duncan antiquities are also great as are the Fralin Pure PAFs.

**jzucker** · 02-10-2014, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

Toat, I don't mean to sound flippant but I found that on such a small hollow body the type of wood will not have as dramatic effect on your tone. Sure all maple or possibly walnut, zebra wood maybe. But there are many other considerations in the Alan Holdsworth guitars that effect the tone. I personally could never get a decent Jazz tone on any 24 fret guitar I owned Carvin or Parker,etc. The std Holdworth was one of the best lead tones I ever had though!
I've found that I like a 14" or larger body to feel most comfortable w/ how it feels and reacts. I will make an exception for thinline Tele's however.

i agree. I doubt you'll get a traditional jazz tone out of a spruce topped holdsworth guitar. Why are you going in that direction out of curiosity? if you want a nice, solid body jazz tone get a samick royale or a comins/d'angelico semihollow ...