F-Holes and Tailpiece Design

[jorgemg1984]

So I am getting a custom archtop made, all solid and with the same ergonomics as my Guild X-500. I need to decide on the design of the f-holes / tailpiece... any suggestions? Never really thought about this stuff before!

Thanks in advance!

[iim7V7IM7]

I would let your luthier decide. It is an important aesthetic, acoustic and structural element.

[jorgemg1984]

Thanks a lot for the link (and for remembering me about headstock).

It's going to be a truly custom thing, I get to decide everything - trying to gather ideas

Really like the Andsersen ones!

[spiral]

What do you like that you've seen? Here was a thread about non-traditional f-holes:
Non Traditional F-Hole Love

The Benedetto TP is very classy to me: so minimal. Jason Combs' Aureate cello TP is also gorgeous. I also like a very simple metal trapeze. Do a search on eBay and StewMac for ideas. Unless you are having a wood one made, you are limited to what is for sale.

I like Eastman's f-holes with very narrow ends, or D'Aquisto s-holes. If it is a carved archtop it will change the type of sound the guitar produces as it changes the way the top vibrates. Apparently an archtop vibrates laterally as well as up and down and the f-holes help the top plate do that vs. a round or oval hole which acts more like a bellows. The size of the hole also has a dramatic effect on the amount of bass the guitar will have.

The builder must have a philosophy about the f-hole shape. What have they said?

[jorgemg1984]

Spiral, thanks for the link!

As for the tailpiece I already have a benedetto tailpiece on my guild and I want something different. Metal is not an option The Combs one looks really good, he's a member here so maybe he'll chime in.

[PTChristopher2]

Jorge,

I will stay out of the aesthetics, it is your guitar after all.

But things that work well are generally endearing over the long haul. So I suggest the following:

- Consider a headstock that does not fan out excessively. Keeping the string pulls through the nut remotely straight-ish helps with easy tuning and stability via less nut friction. It also helps your luthier now and in the future to make the best nut for actual use without accommodating a design quirk.

- Keep the headstock from growing too tall. There is no benefit to lots of dead string behind the nut. And I much rather have any balance issues away from being neck-heavy.

- Look carefully at the tailpiece loading method and clearance above the lower part of the arch-ed-top. Some tailpieces that have the strings emerge from above, like the Benedetto, can leave the tailpiece awkwardly close to the top depending on the shape of the top, the bridge height, and the tailpiece mounting method.

- Consider the ease or dis-ease of changing a single string under gig-condition crowding and lousy lighting, and cranky guitarist who just broke a string (rare as this is for many).

- Make sure that the strings can be somehow grounded no matter how well shielded the electronics are. My few times in Portugal (and maybe the best 7-hour dinner ever with three pals) suggest no major dry air issues. But in some locations you can have static electricity build between you, the cable housing dragging on a floor, a seat, etc.. The occasional discharge (of electricity, I mean - unrelated to urinary tract issues) can cause awkward noises in the guitar even though there is no ambient AC hum trouble. So even if you get a wooden tailpiece, ask for a hidden brass insert - or other method - that will allow string grounding if you decide it is needed now or in the future. Even a wooden tailpiece and a Sacconi loop can be set up with a simple and robust string grounding system.

And one aesthetic opinion: Please don't go for a hideous D'Aquisto block tailpece.

Best of luck with this.

Chris

[PTChristopher2]

>>> Jason Combs' Aureate cello TP is also gorgeous.

Man, in my opinion the whole Aureate is gorgeous.

[PTChristopher2]

Oh, and on f-holes watch out for pointy ends that can focus stress and invite splits. Your luthier can easily add cross-grain (or light fiberglass cloth) gussets on the inside of the top if you are concerned about this.

[jorgemg1984]

Hi Chris, thanks a lot for all the suggestions. My luthier is VERY skilled and some of the things you mentioned (tailpiece too close to the angle and shielding) he already did on my Guild. I will pass all this info to him though! Also I rarely break strings (14 gauge) but I am used to changing strings with a Benedetto tailpiece and locking tuners (my Guild), this guitar should be similar in both matters. You're right, dry air is not an issue here but poor electricity is... but with humbuckers and a properly shielded guitar I have no issues. With P90s it's a whole other story...

I am curious now, where did you had dinner? I am sort of a rarity around here because I don't like Portuguese food much (except some South dishes, spent a lot of time there when I was a kid), although most of the locals and tourists seem to love it!

[jorgemg1984]

I should add - woods used will be Koa and Brazilian Cedar, color will be similar to this

Ebony tailpiece and bridge, black pickup, black Schaller tuners.

Or this:

http://www.victorbakerguitars.com/bl...3/IMG_1963.JPG

[PTChristopher2]

>>> I am curious now, where did you had dinner? I am sort of a rarity around here because I don't like Portuguese food much

To go way off-topic (other can skip this dull part):

I have no idea where it was exactly, and it was quite a while ago during my much-varied work life.

I needed to go to Lisbon (living in Belgium back then) for what was expected to be a quick problem/solution. I got to the airport and three guys I knew were all waiting for me despite it being overkill support to say the least.

It turns out they had a plan. It was a holiday in Portugal and as expected the actual work took maybe 45 minutes max.

So we drove out past Estoril and headed north (as you'd pretty much have to). I do remember we went far enough so it became hilly and the road was well away from the coast, but you still could see the ocean from up in the hills. This is not much to go on, but it is what I recall. There was not much up there - very pleasant area.

Anyway I knew these guys pretty well and the idea was that they would all eat and drink to excess on expense accounts since they were offering much-needed assistance for the brutal day.

We pretty much ate, drank, yammered, then repeated a few times all day and into the evening in some small restaurant up on the hills. Much green wine, shellfish, and pretty much anything they put in front of me.

I do not remember the year, but it was right after one of the guys had moved back to Portugal from South Africa when many were doing so for political reasons - and certainly good changes in South Africa. So figure around 1992.

Anyway, I have not seen those guys in maybe 8 to 10 years now, but we had a blast and remembered it well for a good 10 to 15 years afterwards. You move on,...

*********************

Sounds like you have a good plan and luthier for the guitar.

Chris

[PTChristopher2]

>>> black Schaller tuners.

I like the black Schertler tuners quite a bit. I think Jason used Schertlers on the Aureate?

They do have press-fit bushings, so you or your guy may prefer a threaded bushing on the Schaller tuners.

[feet]

from the above listed, the campy, megas and monty tailpieces are my favorites. and for tailpieces, i tend to like them to be more traditional in appearance. not a fan of "s" holes, chubby f hole midsections, or craziness like that. your standard gibsonesque f hole will do, but i don't mind a cats eye or something different, provided its done well. i think my favorite would be the slightly perverse gretsch 6118 f holes, with the squared ends.

[jasonc]

Thanks you guys. I agree with most of what Chris said and add that you might keep the curve on the side of the headstock kind of shallow. If that curve is really exaggerated the strings can get crowded and might even rub on the tuner below it. Yes the tailpieces that have the strings coming out of the top like mine and Benedetto's do push the tailpiece down but if you keep it thin enough it will be off the top a reasonable distance. One thing I don't care for about the Benedetto style TP is the use of the fulcrum. I don't think it affects the sound noticeably but I don't use the fulcrum at all. Mine are like cellos where the TP is completely free floating. If you don't change any parameter too drastically and your luthier has chops then you should end up with a nice sounding box. Also, if you go with a peaked design like mine be aware that your luthier may hate you because they are a terrible PITA to make. I probably have more jigs and fixtures to make my TP than I have for the rest of the guitar. Every time I start to carve a TP I wonder why I haven't made friends with someone with a CNC machine.

[jorgemg1984]

>>> I am curious now, where did you had dinner? I am sort of a rarity around here because I don't like Portuguese food much

To go way off-topic (other can skip this dull part):

I have no idea where it was exactly, and it was quite a while ago during my much-varied work life.

I needed to go to Lisbon (living in Belgium back then) for what was expected to be a quick problem/solution. I got to the airport and three guys I knew were all waiting for me despite it being overkill support to say the least.

It turns out they had a plan. It was a holiday in Portugal and as expected the actual work took maybe 45 minutes max.

So we drove out past Estoril and headed north (as you'd pretty much have to). I do remember we went far enough so it became hilly and the road was well away from the coast, but you still could see the ocean from up in the hills. This is not much to go on, but it is what I recall. There was not much up there - very pleasant area.

Anyway I knew these guys pretty well and the idea was that they would all eat and drink to excess on expense accounts since they were offering much-needed assistance for the brutal day.

We pretty much ate, drank, yammered, then repeated a few times all day and into the evening in some small restaurant up on the hills. Much green wine, shellfish, and pretty much anything they put in front of me.

I do not remember the year, but it was right after one of the guys had moved back to Portugal from South Africa when many were doing so for political reasons - and certainly good changes in South Africa. So figure around 1992.

Anyway, I have not seen those guys in maybe 8 to 10 years now, but we had a blast and remembered it well for a good 10 to 15 years afterwards. You move on,...

*********************

Sounds like you have a good plan and luthier for the guitar.

Chris

No problem about going off topic, it's my thread You were in Cascais / Guincho / Sintra or something in between I guess. It seems like you had a great time, really good to know you have such good memories in my country... unfortunately the situation you described was (is) common enough to explain where we are right now - dinner's over, the bill has arrived and no one has the money to pay for it. Good metaphor I guess. Anyway back to the geek stuff!

[jorgemg1984]

>>> black Schaller tuners.

I like the black Schertler tuners quite a bit. I think Jason used Schertlers on the Aureate?

They do have press-fit bushings, so you or your guy may prefer a threaded bushing on the Schaller tuners.

I have used Schaller tuners with excellent results so far - very precise and I like the locking system. Plus they sell ebony buttons which was great for my Guild. In this case I just did a pretty good trade for as new black ones with some pedals I had. So tuners are already decided (and I wanted black anyway).

[jorgemg1984]

from the above listed, the campy, megas and monty tailpieces are my favorites. and for tailpieces, i tend to like them to be more traditional in appearance. not a fan of "s" holes, chubby f hole midsections, or craziness like that. your standard gibsonesque f hole will do, but i don't mind a cats eye or something different, provided its done well. i think my favorite would be the slightly perverse gretsch 6118 f holes, with the squared ends. seen here: http://www.vintageguitarsale.net/upf...3122671065.jpg

Thanks for the input feet. I must say s-holes are the most strong possibility right now... sorry

[jorgemg1984]

Thanks you guys. I agree with most of what Chris said and add that you might keep the curve on the side of the headstock kind of shallow. If that curve is really exaggerated the strings can get crowded and might even rub on the tuner below it. Yes the tailpieces that have the strings coming out of the top like mine and Benedetto's do push the tailpiece down but if you keep it thin enough it will be off the top a reasonable distance. One thing I don't care for about the Benedetto style TP is the use of the fulcrum. I don't think it affects the sound noticeably but I don't use the fulcrum at all. Mine are like cellos where the TP is completely free floating. If you don't change any parameter too drastically and your luthier has chops then you should end up with a nice sounding box. Also, if you go with a peaked design like mine be aware that your luthier may hate you because they are a terrible PITA to make. I probably have more jigs and fixtures to make my TP than I have for the rest of the guitar. Every time I start to carve a TP I wonder why I haven't made friends with someone with a CNC machine.

Jason thanks a lot for chiming in, you and Chris have priceless info on these subjects. I will pass all this to my luthier!

I think this guitar will turn amazing. The wood he has is really good and he's basically "built" my Guild and an acoustic guitar I have with stellar results (I mean "build" because both were not made from scratch by him but the amout of work he's done on them almost qualifies him as the "builder").

Just as another side note I am using a solderless pickup system (also on my other guitars) so changing pickups will be very easy. It will be a floating P90 but with enough space for a floating full size humbucker (like Bernstein's Zeidler). No pickguard and no tone control, just one small 1M volume pot inside the fhole (which reminds me Chris, I am modding my two archtops to have only a 1M volume pot in the circuit very soon. Will report when it's done!).

[PTChristopher2]

>>> really good to know you have such good memories in my country...

Thanks. I have been fortunate to say the least, having had a blast in lots of peoples' countries during a busy 20 year period. Was great and then some, but also glad to have moved on and have much more time for guitar work again.

Looking forward to seeing your guitar in progress.

Chris

[jasaco]

This is just a personal pet peeve of mine but I hate tailpieces that show the ball ends of the strings, like with Peerless. Too bad because otherwise I really like some of their guitars... To me it's like having your underwear showing...

[jorgemg1984]

I will keep you posted but it will be a long wait (until the end of the year maybe). Can't wait to have it!

[jorgemg1984]

This is just a personal pet peeve of mine but I hate tailpieces that show the ball ends of the strings, like with Peerless. Too bad because otherwise I really like some of their guitars... To me it's like having your underwear showing...

I agree, that is not an option!

[kenbennett]

From a design standpoint, purely for looks, I think it's a good idea to consider the tailpiece and the fingerrest or pickguard together, especially if they are both made of wood.

[PTChristopher2]

What Ken? You don't think that the Peerless above shows continuity and harmony between the tailpiece and PG?

Har-har. Nothing against Peerless and their superb guitars - just certain that Jorge and his guy will design something more coordinated in material, shape, and trim.

[jzucker]

So I am getting a custom archtop made, all solid and with the same ergonomics as my Guild X-500. I need to decide on the design of the f-holes / tailpiece... any suggestions? Never really thought about this stuff before!

Thanks in advance!

make sure you don't get the tailpiece that uses a string around the bridge pin. What a horrible design that is!!!