Where to buy manouche jazz guitars?

[mrblues]

Hello guys!

Well, I dig myself into gypsy jazz for awhile. So I was taking look at the manufacturers of these and I saw that there are a lot of asian models but the reviews on those are very divided. Lots of positive but same negative reviews on those. I looked the djangobooks forum and the guy there (Michael Horowitz) said that the asian models are not recommended at all. I asked the local guitar shops salesman to make me an offer in the Gitane GD-255, and the John Jorgenson model, but after Michael, and others suggestions I dont know if it would be good to go with those chinese models.

The problem is that the European manufacturers are horribly expensive. Im not thinking in Usa luthiers because of shipping costs, insurance, customs-toll, VATS (well that made my Epi Broadway Elite ordered from USA 3000 usd instead of 2000 which was the sellers price), so I am thinking strictly in EU luthiers.

I found 2 models, which I like because of price more than the others:

#1: Dupont Nomade 1300 Eur
#2: Furch La Gitane same price

Well to be honest I could compare them only on youtube, which is not the best, but maybe in few weeks I can travel to a shop where they keep the Furch axes and can try all of them. Back in few years I liked the D-hole much better because of look, but after looking these videos I really dont know...

<<< Dupont Nomad oval hole

<<< Dupont Nomad D-hole

I want to go with the oval hole model, because I like the sound of those better, but tell my Your opinions, please! I can hear much more django out of the oval hole axe.

Colour is not an option (of course I dont want it to be a hello-kitty model...)

My question is: Do You guys have any experience with those above mentioned, and if not, can You suggest me any oval hole acoustic manouche guitar in the 1000-1300 EUR price range?

thanks,

laci

[redwater]

I was looking for an Petit Bouche in the same pricerange and after many days of researching and testing I ended up with that one:

LeGrand LG 30 Maccaferri Gitarre - LINKS MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS

It was the best Manouche guitar i tried in the 1500€ range, and I tried alot.
These are made with attention to every detail from the original Maccaferris.
Completely all solid woods and very good playability!!!

I enjoy it every time I play it...

[mr. beaumont]

Funny that Michael says he doesn't reccomend the Asian made gypsy jazz guitars, as he sells a bunch of them on djangobooks and has reccomended many of them on the site...are you sure you have the info correct?

The Gitanes are quite nice...even the Ciganos. I've heard very good things about the imported DellArtes and theLatcho Drom. Currently djangobooks is hyping up the Altamiras as well, another Asian made gypsy jazz guitar...seems very contradictory.

That said, get that Dupont! The nomades are incredible.

[AlohaJoe]

The DuPont Nomade is a great guitar; I've played several. They have the most consistent quality I've seen in that price range, and the most 'authentic' sound of the guitars mentioned. I've also had a Manouch (decent) and played quite a few Dell'Artes (nice). I would consider ordering a Nomade sight unseen, but in my experience the Gitanes are less consistent. Many are very nice, but they do vary... play it first.

I prefer the D-hole, or 'grand bouche' (with the 640mm scale) as it's easier for the player to hear. The 12-fret models are the original design that puts the bridge closer to the center of the lower bout and they are often remarkably rich in natural reverb and overtones. Some makers also offer a 14-fret, 670mm D-hole hybrid. The oval, or petit bouche is normally a 670mm scale.

In the interest of full disclosure, I know Michael but have no financial interest. I have bought guitars and accessories from him over the years, and consider him to be an honest broker. He enjoys talking guitars and is usually available on the phone.

These are Canadian-made Luthier guitars (Shelley D. Park), but her website has lots of good information on sizes, woods etc.: http://www.parkguitars.com/

[nado64]

Some French Luthiers in your price :
Castelluccia, Alves de Puga

A complete list : here

[add4]

In this price range i'd definitely start looking for a second hand luthier guitar, instead of a new one.
At 1000-1500$ you're just under the price of a new very good guitar, at the price of a very good mass produced guitar, and you could have a second hand good luthier one.

I have a dupont MD-50E and LOVE it, it happened several time that i walked out of gypsy jam sessions and people would find me and ask me what is that guitar because they loved its particular sound. the guy i play with also went for a high grade dupont after playing about 40 different models from 20 different luthiers

I have no experience with the nomad, but i've heard you pay the dupont name, but not the quality. The asian made guitars (gitanes, cigano) have one problem according to me, they are waaaay to bassy for the gypsy style. it's more attractive when played alone, but they can be too much when played with others, i've been disturbed by people playing gitanes next to me in jams because of that.

I advised the cigano to one of my students for this reason, and i also find it sound better without the varnish of the gitanes models.
We were playing during a lesson, i found the cigano performed well, and my girlfriend who was upstairs told me afterward that his guitar sounded thin and awful compared to mine (which is to be hoped for, because mine costed 5 times the price). I think low cost asian ones will have some gypsy jazz characteristics, they bark, have the volume, but will lack dynamics, have too much bass and the sound is loud, but not beautiful.

Just wanted to share that experience. First thing i'd do if i were you would be look into the second hand market for a used dupont, castellucia, ALD, John le voi, or something like that

hope that helps

[bohemian46]

Michael Horowitz is clear, the best of the Asian guitars does not compare with the sound of the Dupont Nomade. The best Asian models do offer
flashier materials and glossy finishes. What they do not offer is the Dupont construction, playability and tone.

Used Nomades in Europe sell for around 800 Euros.

[mrblues]

Hello guys!

Thank You All for the inputs!

Mr.B: yes, I read it on the djangobooks forum unfortunately I cant find the related topics anymore. He said exactly what bohemian said.

AlohaJoe: thank You for Your info, gonna give a shot to the D-hole axes.

Nado: Thanks! The main problem is that some luthiers dont have their own webistes in english language, so I cant understand anything :-D

add4: Thank You, well I said 1000-1300 Eur, not usd, thats a bit more what You said, but You are right in that context that I have to buy a 2nd hand one, cause cant buy a "lifelong keeper" in that pricerange . Unfortunately the ebay doesnt keep any.

bohemian: Thanks, and tell me where to look for used axes, please! (need an eurpoean one, as I said, dont wanna spend money on VATS, and customs toll, thanks)

have a nice weekend guys!

laci

[iim7V7IM7]

Hi,

Let me caveat my statements by providing you with some context. I am a hobbiest home player who mostly plays solo jazz chord melody and I am learning some more Gypsy jazz tunes. I have 20+ years playing archtops, flattops, semi-hollow and sold body guitars. I own some fairly high quality guitars. I am NOT an expert on Selmer style guitars nor Gypsy jazz. I recently purchased a Selmer style guitar from Michael.

For my application, playing both solo jazz chord melody and learning more traditional Gypsy rhythm, lead and solo play Michael recommended that I consider a 14-fret long scale instrument with a D-Hole so I could hear myself play better than with an oval hole. We discussed the different offerings that he carried. We discussed teh spectrum of choices from Cigano to Dupont.

I ended up choosing a higher-end Asian (Made in China) model by SAGA Gitane called the DG-370 (Modelle Dorado Schmitt). It was ~1100 Euros. I payed an extra 225 Euros to have a new, lighter bridge fabricated by Michael's luthier Josh, the frets leveled, a leather installed, a pickguard installed and a general set-up. So this instrument is right around the target price you were looking at.

I had 1) no prior experience from Michael; 2) with a Chinese manufactured instrument and 3) with a Selmer style guitar. What I can tell you with great confidence is that this guitar is a FANTASTIC guitar. The fit and finish in a range from poor, good, very good, excellent to outstanding as I would describe as "very good". It can set-up like a dream, and it is both loud, ressonant and dynamic with a wonderful tone. I cannot imagine a better instrument at this price point new. That being said, others may have more direct knowledge in these types of instruments than me.

I too did get the sense that Michael has no passion for the Asian made instruments. He did say that the fit and finish on a DG-370 was a step up from the Gitane line of guitars. He also told me that once you replace the bridge (which tyically come way too massively built) you see a step change in instrument performance. So I for one fully recommend considering a Gitane. Mine is wonderful guitar. I also recommend buying from Michael, he is both extremely knowledgeable and generous with his time.

Regards,

Bob

[mr. beaumont]

I've read horovitz say there was "nothing better under 2k" regarding the nomades. I've also read him referring to the gitanes as "the best under 1k" and now check what is written on djangobooks about the latcho drom and altimira brands.

This is certainly different than saying "I don't reccomend." So somethings up.

[mrblues]

I've read horovitz say there was "nothing better under 2k" regarding the nomades. I've also read him referring to the gitanes as "the best under 1k" and now check what is written on djangobooks about the latcho drom and altimira brands.

This is certainly different than saying "I don't reccomend." So somethings up.

Hi!

I couldnt quote him word by word, so my apologizes for the misunderstaning.
I just read something similar to what I mentioned. MAybe the context was bad. I dunnow. MAybe I was wrong in what I wanted to say in the beginning. I didnt say asians cant make good instruments, my only problem is with that, that its too risky for me to buy an asian guitar online, because it has 50-50 percentage that it is cool or a crap. But if I order from a french luthier for example, these percentages go to 99-1 (cool/crap).

Sry again MrB.

iim7V7IM7: Thank You bro!

Here the problem is that Michael is in the US and as I stated, I had to pay extra bucks if i order from the US (vats, customs office, and they usually ruin the axe at the customs office so more $$ go to the luthier also...). And here in middle europe I dont know any luthiers who have experience on manouche guitars to setup it later maybe. Maybe I have to look around the used market.

[iim7V7IM7]

Mr. Blues (I've always wanted to address someone that way!),

I am not too sure about the validity of the statistics behind your odds ratios, but I suspect that they are not as far appart as you propose between an Asian and EU made instrument. I also think the dynamic range of relative goodness ranges between good and great and not crap and great.

I also do understand your geographical constraints. Likewise, when I was choosing a luthier to make a custom archtop, I only looked within the USA for similar concerns.

Good Luck in your search,

Bob

Hi!

I couldnt quote him word by word, so my apologizes for the misunderstaning.
I just read something similar to what I mentioned. MAybe the context was bad. I dunnow. MAybe I was wrong in what I wanted to say in the beginning. I didnt say asians cant make good instruments, my only problem is with that, that its too risky for me to buy an asian guitar online, because it has 50-50 percentage that it is cool or a crap. But if I order from a french luthier for example, these percentages go to 99-1 (cool/crap).

Sry again MrB.

iim7V7IM7: Thank You bro!

Here the problem is that Michael is in the US and as I stated, I had to pay extra bucks if i order from the US (vats, customs office, and they usually ruin the axe at the customs office so more $$ go to the luthier also...). And here in middle europe I dont know any luthiers who have experience on manouche guitars to setup it later maybe. Maybe I have to look around the used market.

[add4]

if you're in middle europe, try guitare village, ne and used guitars store near paris. they usually have a nice range of gypsy jazz guitars, at a fairly high price since they are very well knew and one guitar from there is believed to be high quality. the price you pay is a little bit higher than from other retailers though. but if you're buying without trying, that could be a good thing..

guitares jazz et jazz manouches d'occasion archtops copies selmer favino anastasio alves de puga gibson epiphone occasion guitare village

the forum : guitare jazz manouche has a section dedicated to used gypsy jazz guitars. it's in french but almost anyone will gladly switch to english if you ask for details in english.
http://guitarejazzmanouche.com/forum...dfa8a5c5448b64

That being said, the guitarist i play with in a gypsy jazz band just bought a high end dupont (super chorus model, DM50, not official yet, but a GREAT guitar!!!) and is thinking of selling his old one : it's a D-hole luthier guitar made by rodriguez, a luthier well known for his classical guitars, who made some manouche guitars at the end of his life. I think my friend wants something like 1100-1200 euros from it. i could put you two in contact if you're interested. Mp if you want to.
Here you have pics of the guitar in question (sides and back in Rio Rosewood!!)
http://www.benoit-de-bretagne.com/ph...ic.php?t=10797

Hope that helps.
Peace

[mrblues]

Hi add4!

On the website You gave me I could only buy the Alves de Puga model. I write them an inquiry mail.

I jsut saw You refreshed Your answer. Thanks for the pics, I surf the net about that guitar, and pm You later.

Thanks, thats 1600 km away from me. I found a store in Vienna (300 km), where they keep Gitanos, and an other one in Ljubjana (350 km), where they keep Ciganos. And in Budapest (250 km)there is a Furch dealer, with 2 grand bouchet and 2 petite bouchet Furch beauties. I will give a try on the Furchs. Also I found a used Gitano petite bouchet, which is here in hungary, but on the other side of country. No problem, I wrote the seller to ask what kind of Gitano is that, because he didnt mention that. It comes with a hard sehll case as I saw and the guy said that the guitar is dedicated by STochelo Rosenberg. Its price is 840 usd used. Well, It doesnt matter if Stochelo wrote it or not if that axe sounds good. I am waiting for the answer of that guy now.

laci

[tootZ]

hello folks

the rodriguez one is told not to sound so good on the benoît de bretagne forum (because of a bridge modified to have a lower action), does the guitar needs a new bridge?

thanks for more information

french mike

[add4]

In fact, the rodriguez has a bridge which is a bit too low, and has a ivory part on it. both these things are believed to make it a little more resonant that a median gypsy jazz guitar.
The definition of 'not so good' heavily depends of what you compare it to.
Compared to an asian guitar, it's far better. compared to my 3300 euros MD50E, it's not as good.. but that's normal in fact. My friend plays with me all the time so when my guitar and his are together, the rodriguez doesn't sound as good.. but it's definitely better than the gitanes and cigano out there.. and it also is much more hearable than my dupont in jams where a lot of volume is needed.

Thought that was worth mentioning as i know that guitar well.

hello folks

the rodriguez one is told not to sound so good on the benoît de bretagne forum (because of a bridge modified to have a lower action), does the guitar needs a new bridge?

thanks for more information

french mike

[mrblues]

Mr. Blues (I've always wanted to address someone that way!),

I am not too sure about the validity of the statistics behind your odds ratios, but I suspect that they are not as far appart as you propose between an Asian and EU made instrument. I also think the dynamic range of relative goodness ranges between good and great and not crap and great.

I also do understand your geographical constraints. Likewise, when I was choosing a luthier to make a custom archtop, I only looked within the USA for similar concerns.

Good Luck in your search,

Bob

Thanks!

And by the way the guitar on the pics is beautiful! Congrats to it!

Well, that 50-50 % is my own experience with asian guitars ordered (1 stagg-chinese, 2 johnsons -chinese, 1 oscar schmidt -chinese, 1 epiphone -indonesia, and 1 slammer-chinese). The Epi, 1 of the Johnsons, and the Stagg were okay, the other 3 were awful.
But to tell the truth, I like Japanese guitars more than any other (my main axe is an Epi Broadway Elite made in Japan).
I have 1 European instrument a Furch S-42-SF acoustic, which is outstanding, but if I decide to buy a better manouche axe, I have to sell it because the lack of money.

[mrblues]

I would buy an asian guitar if I could try it 1st. I am looking the Altamiras at the germany website, they look cool for the price. I read that if the bridge and the tuners are changed for good ones, those guitars can be cools! But really its a lottery to buy them online without giving them a try.

Im playing with the idea to sell my Furch, and buy a Furch La Gitane. Starting from that my Furch is a world champion except its hard to play it on the 7th fret and up to it because the strings are so high (well, I was too lazy to take it to a luthier), and that company is a well-known for their quality instruments, and the woods are also hand selected, and high quality, maybe I have to give them a try.

Just look at these:

Furch Guitars - Model GIE51CM
Furch Guitars - Model GIE52-SR

the price is high-end for me, like a dupont nomade with delivery and insurance costs.

What You guys think?

[AlohaJoe]

I'm with you on trying it first... I won't buy a guitar sight unseen because I'm fussy when it comes to the neck. If it's not comfortable to play it will just stay in the case until I sell it. Not a major consideration to everybody, but a big deal to me.

I went to Horowitz's a few years ago to try a Shelley Park that was on consignment. It had a great price and it was exactly what I wanted... long scale, 14-fret, petit bouche with Rosewood back and sides but the neck wasn't comfortable and the frets were very worn. I was disillusioned but decided to try a few others. After trying almost every guitar there (maybe a dozen) Michael said there's another Shelley here but it's a grande bouche, 12 fret Canadian Big-Leaf Maple.... pretty much the opposite of what I thought I wanted, but when my hand went around the neck it was perfect. The sound was stunning. They'll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands.

Play them first (if you can)... choose with your hand and your ear. find the one you love.
- Joe
ps - iim7V7IM7... that's a beauty!

[mrblues]

I was looking for an Petit Bouche in the same pricerange and after many days of researching and testing I ended up with that one:

LeGrand LG 30 Maccaferri Gitarre - LINKS MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS

It was the best Manouche guitar i tried in the 1500€ range, and I tried alot.
These are made with attention to every detail from the original Maccaferris.
Completely all solid woods and very good playability!!!

I enjoy it every time I play it...

Redwater!

Unfortunately taht LG30 is gone now, they have only a LG01 in stock. My question is that where can I find anything about that LeGrand guitar on the net?! I was googling a bit, but found only some US luthiers who make electric guitars but thats all. Cant find any detalis of those... No website, no contact to luthier or manufacture...

You know any of those?

thanks

ps.: the shops salesmen didnt answer me by the way...

[eddy b.]

I have a two year old Gitane D500 , it cost $800 bucks and it is a great little guitar fantastic actually especially for the price point. I would highly recomend this guitar to anyone looking for an affordable entry into that Gypsy Jazz Sound!!

[redwater]

Redwater!

Unfortunately taht LG30 is gone now, they have only a LG01 in stock. My question is that where can I find anything about that LeGrand guitar on the net?! I was googling a bit, but found only some US luthiers who make electric guitars but thats all. Cant find any detalis of those... No website, no contact to luthier or manufacture...

You know any of those?

thanks

ps.: the shops salesmen didnt answer me by the way...

Hi Mr. Blues,

I don`t know why the Shop owner (Leslie) did not answer your mail.
I know him as a very kind guy.

Yes it is hard to find any information about these LeGrands. I think that they does not have a Website.
Don`t buy the LG01, because it is not all solid. It just features a solid top.
The sound is good, but comes not close to the LG30 wich is all solid.

Sorry, I can`t help you in that case.
Hope you find the right guitar for you.

Maybe you will find a nice guitar here: http://www.gypsyguitar.de/

I don`t know why I forgot to send you this Link.
They carry many Selmer style guitars and are very acknowledged in (and not only) the german Gypsymusic-scene.

Best Regards

[iim7V7IM7]

Weren't original Selmer's laminated back/bodies? Aren't Dupont's today also laminated back/bodies until you get to models >~$4,000 Euros?

[redwater]

Weren't original Selmer's laminated back/bodies? Aren't Dupont's today also laminated back/bodies until you get to models >~$4,000 Euros?

Maybe, but the all solid bodies sound (in most cases) better.
I don`want to start a discussion if laminated or solid is better or not.
But I personally think that the Manouche guitars do benefit from all solid construction.

[iim7V7IM7]

I was just making the point that at the poster's price point, that might be setting the bar a bit high unnecessarily? For example, guitars (Busato, Selmer and Selmer Maccaferri) by Maurice Dupont which by many are considered to be a reference standard in terms of their tone and quality in the Gypsy jazz category are all manufactured using laminates and they are priced between 1,300-4,050 Euros. I am not trying to get into a debate regarding which technique is superior; I am just suggesting to the original poster that a criterion that dismisses an instrument on that basis of construction might 1) pair your selection down to very few choices and 2) might prevent you from trying some wonderful instruments. Food for thought…

Maybe, but the all solid bodies sound (in most cases) better.
I don`want to start a discussion if laminated or solid is better or not.
But I personally think that the Manouche guitars do benefit from all solid construction.