Guitar Amp For Early Swing and Blues

**ruger9** · 06-13-2014, 07:36 AM

Nocturne has released their Moonshine '39....octal preamp....

Nocturne BlondeShell 63 (this is actually the link to the Moonshine '39)

**jasonc** · 06-13-2014, 11:11 AM

I guess I shouldn't have said that because I can think of a few. Elektra does an EH-150/185, Sequel does some GA-50 type amps. I've always thought the Vintage 47 amps were more like the old Valco-Oahu-Alamo type amps than the Gibsons and Epiphones. But the early jazz and Western swing sounds were done almost exclusively on either a Gibson EH-150/185 or an Epiphone Electar. My Electar clone is pretty much instant Junior Barnard when cranked up.

**campusfive** · 06-13-2014, 11:32 AM

I emailed the guy at Nocturne a couple weeks ago about the Moonshine '39, but I got no response. But, at the time there was no mention of the '39 on his page, so maybe that has something to do with it. Now he's taking orders, so who knows.

I've been watching Elektra for a while, and I'd love to get over to Europe to hear one.

Clearly the Vintage47's aren't exactly modeled off Gibson amps, but as far as categories/styles of amp, they're in the same family, unlike later tweed amps, or blackfaces, or marshall-style english amps, etc. I call them "octal amps" or "pre-tweed". Given the original poster's desire for lower volume, I figured the low power of the vintage 47 would be advantageous.

Jason, you have to tell us more about the Electar clone! Jeremy Wakefield had one he would bring to gigs, but it kept braking so he started bringing something more powerful and reliable. I had a chance to buy a mint one for $500 several years ago, but didn't have the scratch at the time. Boo!

**ruger9** · 06-13-2014, 12:25 PM

Yeah, the new Epi Century that's coming out probably won't sound anything like the old ones, and it's certainly not an octal.

For price, I think Vintage 47 would be tough to beat. This thread has talked me into buying one, as soon as I unload one of my other amps...

**rbrandt** · 06-13-2014, 01:00 PM

I've appreciate all the input from everyone. I have emailed Vintage 47 for more information. I am definitely leaning toward their amps.

**Greentone** · 06-13-2014, 01:18 PM

Fender two-tone Champ Amp. That'll do it. As an alternative, you could get someone to build you a 5C1 octal Champ. It is small, inexpensive, and it sounds great. I have built this amp and it works well for what you have in mind. Ted Weber's 8-inch 4-ohm speaker is great.

**jasonc** · 06-13-2014, 04:32 PM

Well, I'm just nit pickin'. When I think Valco I think blues sounds and not necessarily swing/western swing sounds. But yeah, cool amps and sounds just not quite the same as the EH's and Electars that's all. There's a couple of different schematics for Electars floating around the web. I built the non tremolo version because I'm not a fan and would never use it. Mine uses two 6L6's and three 6SJ7's (two for the phase inverter and one for preamp) and 5Y3 rectifier and I use a PM speaker as opposed to a field coil. I need to re-house it. What I think would be really cool would be an EH-150ish amp with 30-40 watts.

**Greentone** · 06-13-2014, 04:45 PM

I have the stuff gathered...minus transformers...to build the EH 150 in Tino Zottolla's book. It goes on my bench right after my next Harvard build--half done.

**jasonc** · 06-13-2014, 05:09 PM

You should start a thread about it once you get started. I'd follow along. I might even build another one too.

**allanploth** · 06-20-2014, 11:00 PM

BHT Special 6 is a nice, affordable, hand-wired combo, if you can handle just volume and tone.

**allanploth** · 06-20-2014, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by allanploth

BHT Special 6 is a nice, affordable, hand-wired combo, if you can handle just volume and tone.

VHT, that is.

**rbrandt** · 06-24-2014, 11:59 PM

Thanks to everyone who replied in this thread with their suggestions. I ended up going with the Vintage 47 Oahu Suitcase. It was delivered today, and I only got to play for a few minutes with my tele and ES-345. It sounds good out of the box, so can't wait to see how it breaks in over time.

**ruger9** · 06-25-2014, 07:21 AM

Excellent choice! The suitcase is the one I have my eye on as well.... if I had the extra $$$, I'd buy one of the last 5 Oahu El Capitans he's making (if they aren't already spoken for).

**ruger9** · 07-29-2014, 04:41 PM

FWIW....for anyone who's interested....

I just installed a Vintage 47 (made my Tone Tubby) 8" alnico hemp cone speaker in y Champion 600....

The hemp cone is of course a huge improvement over the crappy stock speaker, but anything would be. More interesting is that is DOES INDEED lend the C600 to sounding ALOT like the V47 Oahu Suitcase.... the tonal signature of that speaker must be a big part of the tone of the Oahu. I can tell the BF tonestack on the C600 still isn't "quite right", but it was quite surprising how much the C600 now sounds like the Oahu, even with no other mods. This was with a 5751 in V1, I'm going to try again the 12AY7 as well as the 6SL7 (which is what the Suitcase uses) since I swapped the speaker.

Totally worthwhile upgrade, IF you're looking for that old school tone like in that V47 Oahu Suitcase

(But I STILL want a Suitcase LOL)

**SuperFour00** · 07-29-2014, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by campusfive

Or see if you can find one of the Valco/National/Oahu amps that Vintage 47 are based on.

This ... old Lap-Steel amp. I have an old Kamico that does what you want, 40s vintage. They're out there.

**Greentone** · 07-29-2014, 04:52 PM

Will a 12ay7 work as the preamp tube in a c600? Remember, there is only one tube there, other than the power tube. Thus, the 12a_7 tube is serving as both the preamp _and_ the driver for the single-ended power tube. The gain on the first stage is not that critical, but I believe you need all you can get on the second stage to effectively drive the 6v6 power tube. This is why the circuit originally called for the tube it used. The 5751 has about 70% of the gain of the 12ax7 tube, but the 12ay7 is a serious drop off. That's okay in an amp like the 5e3, where you have a following 12ax7 tube as a phase inverter driving the power tubes. Not so much in the c600. Have others done what you are contemplating successfully?

**nopedals** · 07-29-2014, 04:58 PM

I would have changed guitars rather than amps if I was looking for that sort of tone. Your peavy with an old P90 box would be easier to dial in than a humbucker Gibson played through an old Gibson amp, or amp trying to copy one.

**ruger9** · 07-29-2014, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Will a 12ay7 work as the preamp tube in a c600? Remember, there is only one tube there, other than the power tube. Thus, the 12a_7 tube is serving as both the preamp _and_ the driver for the single-ended power tube. The gain on the first stage is not that critical, but I believe you need all you can get on the second stage to effectively drive the 6v6 power tube. This is why the circuit originally called for the tube it used. The 5751 has about 70% of the gain of the 12ax7 tube, but the 12ay7 is a serious drop off. That's okay in an amp like the 5e3, where you have a following 12ax7 tube as a phase inverter driving the power tubes. Not so much in the c600. Have others done what you are contemplating successfully?

Yes... a 5751, and 12AY7, both work fine. They just lower the overall gain of the circuit, respectively. Ditto for the 6SL7 using an adaptor... the 6SL7 in basically indistinguishable for a 5751.

With the AY7 in there, even on 12 the amp can't get ratty/garagey, and actually sounds great on 12 for the old school/slightly distorted tones we're talking about in this thread.

**ruger9** · 07-29-2014, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by nopedals

I would have changed guitars rather than amps if I was looking for that sort of tone. Your peavy with an old P90 box would be easier to dial in than a humbucker Gibson played through an old Gibson amp, or amp trying to copy one.

For sure. My Broadway w/P90 was MUCH closer to the old-school tone, my Gretsch w/P90 somewhat less so, and a tele neck pickup not really close.

**jads57** · 07-29-2014, 07:27 PM

Find a boutique brand tweed amp used, preferably lower wattage say 25 watts.

**Valdez** · 07-29-2014, 07:43 PM

You need a Elektra amp!

**Greentone** · 07-29-2014, 08:51 PM

I have an octal preamp tweed Fender Pro Amp that I really like for blues/jazz. It does the jazz with some hair/grit thing to a tee. Also, I really like the 15" speaker. The old Pro was Fender's top of the line in its day. It strokes in at about 20 watts or thereabouts with two 6L6 power tubes.

I built my amp and use Weber's 15a150O alnico speaker, which is an effort to copy the old Jensen P15n speaker. Having experience with that driver I would say Weber got the design right.

**rbrandt** · 07-30-2014, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by nopedals

I would have changed guitars rather than amps if I was looking for that sort of tone. Your peavy with an old P90 box would be easier to dial in than a humbucker Gibson played through an old Gibson amp, or amp trying to copy one.

A jazz box with a P90 is definitely on my wish list. But, I just got the ES-345 a few months ago. I don't want to push my luck with the wife by getting another guitar so soon lol.

**ruger9** · 08-06-2014, 03:40 PM

OK, just completed the final mod to the Champion 600, if anybody is interested:

My goal was, for a more old-school Gibson/Valco kinda' vibe... at HOME VOLUMES. Vintage 47 nails it with their small combos, I wondered if I could get in the ballpark with the C600.

So, in the end, my answer is YES. It'll never be a Moonshine or Elektra (bigger trannies, bigger speakers, bigger cabs), but for old school tone at HOME VOLUMES, it sounds great. Here's my final summary, if you're interested:

1) The V47 speaker (made by Tone Tubby, 8" alnico smooth hemp cone) did about half of the work in getting the little C600 into Vintage47 Oahu Suitcase/vintage 5C1 territory.

2) ...and the tone stack bypass (using a .022uf coupling cap like the 5C1) took it the rest of the way. I installed a switch to go from the stock tone stack (which can give lovely, cleaner, Johnny Smith type tones, as well as cranked blackface tones, if you like that sorta thing LOL) to the tone stack bypassed with the .022uf.

3) I settled on a 12DW7/ECC832 in the preamp, it seemed to be the best "overall" for tone and gain. The AY7 had a slightly better gain (lower/smoother) but was too bright. The 5751 was just too hot. The 6SL7 (with adaptor, that required the removal of the preamp tube holder- PITA) sounded just like a 5751. I know you said the 6SL7 takes boosts better, but I won't be using boosts with this little home amp, I'll just turn it up a bit.

4) this amp is still not loud WHEN SET TO SOUND IT'S BEST. It's still a HOME VOLUME amp, which is in fact what I was after anyway.

**Greentone** · 08-06-2014, 03:59 PM

I thought all along it was going to be the two-tone Champ (i.e., Champion 600) for you. It is a great little amp and can be modded to get you what you want. The speaker mod you did was a great idea. Enjoy.

As you have now come to realize, everybody is entirely too wedded to the 1960s tone stack--black face, etc. Well...it just doesn't cut the mustard, if you are trying to get the 50s sound. ;-)