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Would an ebony bridge have an effect on the sound of my ES-175? It's a newer model with a rosewood bridge. Kinda curious.
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09-26-2014 11:39 PM
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I'll say this, I changed my TOM out on my 1995 175 for a rosewood nearly 2 years ago and at that time I found the overall sound got brighter, a bit more highs, less mids. I played around with bases, ebony and several rosewood bridges, pup height and with all of the mixing them up found a pleasing sweet spot with a rosewood bridge. I also decided to go with a bit heavier strings and was very pleased with my experiments. The ebony did not sound much different to my ears, but by the time I got to it I was admittedly a bit frazzled :-)
The bottom line is... it can't hurt to try ebony. You may have a EUREKA moment!
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Originally Posted by Encinitastubes
I have switched bridges on archtops from rosewood to ebony (no TOMs involved; just all wood for all wood). I always notice a difference in tone. Ebony is a more rigid wood and I hear more clarity and less mellow. In one case, a guitar had a dead fret with the stock rosewood bridge. It disappeared with a switch to ebony. The switch probably moved the dead area to another frequency (and not sure if it was the wood change or the design of bridge).
Bottom line: There will be a change. Perhaps for the better. Hope this helps.
Andy
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In keeping with a theory held true by every luthier I've ever spoken with . . . "everything affects tone". So then, with that belief . . every change of componentry also will effect tone. However, like everything else . . some will be able to detect and hear the difference between the before and after . . . and some will not. Which will cause some to wonder if the difference is real . . or perceived.
In the end, it's all about your ear and no one else's. My recommendation to you would be . . follow GNAPPI's path. Experiment . . . see what works best for you own ears.
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A lot of people believe this (including some luthiers) but all objective evidence suggests that the tone-variable narrative where people can 'hear the difference' tends to be radically (X100) overstated. Just because someone is a talented woodworker doesn't make them a talented objectivist. Some things effect tone but a lot of things people 'believe' effects tone really doesn't. Originally Posted by Patrick2
A lot of things people 'believe' they can perceive- and concomitantly 'believe' they just have more refined powers of perception when someone points out that there is no perceptible difference- are simply confirmation bias in action. This includes things that have long been championed by magic tone believers as making such a big difference (ie, bone materials have magical powers to create (insert tone superlatives here) that synthetic materials of identical hardness cannot achieve).
Even some of the holiest-high beliefs about things like electric instrument tonewood don't live up to the most superficial objective inquiry.
To the OP, there are billions of people who believe angels intercede in their lives but none willing to bet on it. There's a reason for that. Go on the internet and you'll find no shortage of people who deeply, sincerely believe they can 'hear' certain materials. Find one willing to bet one it in a randomized test with blind controls in place.
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If you re read my post, I think you'll see that you and I are pretty much saying the same thing . . albeit with totally different levels of verbosity. (concomitantly???) I didn't say that I concurred with the theory that is embraced by the many luthiers. I just said . . "In keeping with it". Then, I went on to indicate just how perceived and subjective the changes actually can be. Originally Posted by Music
I've told this story here before . . but, it's worth repeating especially given your reference to electric instrument tone wood.
During a visit to Heritage in Kalamazoo, I got into a very heated discussion with the owners about long vs short neck tenons on Les Pauls and H150s respectively. I was adamant that Heritage should switch to the long tenon. Jim and marv insisted that they've never had an H150 or an H535 (ES335) type guitar come back to them due to breakage. I asked . . "what about the tone?" Jim replied . . "what about it?" I asked . . "is there a difference in tone? People have indicated that the long tenon transfers the resonance from the neck to the body better. Is that true" His reply was . . "if people really believe that they hear a difference . . then it's true". Then, understanding exactly what he was saying, I asked . . "well, what about hot hyde glue for the finger board glued to the neck instead of tite bond . . will that make a difference in tone?" Again, his reply . . "it does if you think you hear a difference". Ya just gotta love a guy who knows how to answer a question effectively. I knew exactly what he meant . . and I've never again bought into subjective immeasureable hype.
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I think it'd probably be a smidge brighter, or "pingier", which may or may not be what you're looking for. If the guitar doesn't have any problems that you're trying to fix, it might not be worth it to buy an ebony bridge and have it notched and fitted to the top. Course, if you have the money, why not? Originally Posted by Encinitastubes
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Things that may be perciptible/measurable (if not otherwise insignificant, but noticeable if you're paying attention and listening for a difference) acoustically don't always translate to an amplified signal.
"Electric Guitar Tonewood" is a big one where it seems like it should make a difference, and unplugged, you can usually tell a difference in theoretical 'sustain' but amplified, the game completely changes.
As with everything else of this nature, there are people who will furiously defend their specious 'beliefs' but stop short of actually betting on them, since self preservation originates from a different place in the brain than complex delusion.
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Ignoring the white noise for a moment...
Of course the bridge material makes a perceptible difference - usually in both tone and feel. It's all about density. Harder, denser, and/or heavier materials transmit energy less readily to adjacent structures (from bridge to top in our example).
Rosewood, ebony, metal - in that order from light to dense - you'll hear for yourself what they do to both acoustic and electric tone.
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So, you can 'ear' a Rosewood bridge from an Ebony bridge in an electric guitar signal?
Last edited by Music; 09-28-2014 at 10:01 PM.
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I will send an email to my luthier, sorry, I mean my woodworker to tell me if he can ear a different tone when a bridge changes.
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No, I probably can't. But when I play the guitar I absolutely can feel the difference. All of these subtleties are really about feel in conjunction with sound, not sound by itself. Lots of people on the internet have that misconception when they debate such things. Originally Posted by Music
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Yep! I bought an L5CES brand new back in 1994. I played it for about 4 months with the TOM, then changed over to a compensated ebony saddle. I knew within 15 minutes that it had become a different guitar with the saddle change. It's TOM has been resting comfortably in the case pocket for the past 20 years. In 2012 I bought a new L5 Wesmo. I put an ebony saddle on it after about 2 weeks. It's TOM is also resting comfortably in the case pocket. Originally Posted by rpguitar
Maybe I'm hearing and feeling the preferable difference because I want to. Or, maybe it's real. I don't really care which the case may be. I prefer what I hear and feel now . . as opposed to what I heard and felt before the swap out.
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Tried all 3 (tom,rosewood and ebony) on my Emp Reg. Yes.. I do hear the difference (much more noticeable acoustically). And for me, the same result, TOM in the case. But for an added bonus after about 6 months I went back to the tom (I forget why) and that lasted all of 15 minutes. Originally Posted by Patrick2
I actually dont notice much of a difference in the feel and playablity between the three but there is definitely a difference in tone.
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No, because the nut material is still in vibrational contact with the neck. It's a complex system where the little things add up. However, I really don't disagree much here. In my personal experience I find the nut material makes very little if any difference to the fretted tone. I like tusq myself, whereas graphite nuts just suck. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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The problem is that different people report contradictory effects from those changes- more twang, less twang; brighter, darker; more sustain, less sustain; etc. Originally Posted by rpguitar
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Hmm.. since when do we cease commenting on threads once the OP's question has been answered? I'm actually curious about African Blackwood bridges but not sure I want to go to the trouble of learning how to fit a bridge yet. I'm OK with a 'no change' result because I think it will look nice and I do need a new bridge on one of mine.
And I agree with the definition of a 'troll' as a time waster. Shrill assertion and poor manners don't help of course. Can't see where it's profitable to engage regardless of whatever arbitrary labels might be applied.Last edited by Spook410; 10-01-2014 at 06:01 PM.
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There is also this test: Double-Blind Violin Test: Can You Pick The Strad? : Deceptive Cadence : NPR .
I have a problem with it although it was designed by a person with high credentials. It tells me more about the testing methodology than about the instruments. And it is risible that the NPR should provide two lossy samples and then ask the reader to discern between them without any idea of the amount of resolution of the playback equipment the reader has at his disposal.
Sloppily designed tests often lead to faulty conclusions. And the public buys into that.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 10-02-2014 at 05:24 AM.
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Stradivarius v modern violins: why this latest study strikes a discordant note | Music | theguardian.com
Experience counts for nothing. Zilch. Nada... Or so the Music-man sez.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 10-02-2014 at 05:58 AM.
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I think we have all been through the violin thing enough times in recent years. Yes indeed, the "study" was flawed.
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I put a Sadowsky ebony saddle on my L-5 P and it definitely warmed up the tone compared to the stock ABR-1. Though I think the guitar was a bit louder with the ABR-1 saddle.
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>>> I put a Sadowsky ebony saddle on my L-5 P and it definitely warmed up the tone compared to the stock ABR-1. Though I think the guitar was a bit louder with the ABR-1 saddle.
Glad it worked out for you. The great thing about the Sadowsky saddles is the very well conceived compensation pattern.
I have not myself noticed a consistent "woodier" or warmer sound from a wooden bridge vs. a metal one. On some guitars, a lighter wooden bridge can even be harsher with an attack full of atonal transients on the string no matter how smooth a picker one may be.
It is funny to note that sometimes it takes a really huge change in bridge mass to make any sort of noticeable difference, while other times a relatively small change can make a notable difference. (And many times there is no difference even with a ham sandwich glued to the bridge.)
Sometimes a very slight change in a guitar will significantly move a resonant peak (sometimes found as a wolf note). So it is possible that in the case of some guitars, a small bridge change could alter a resonant peak in a way that very noticeably affects the general sound of the instrument, while in MANY cases this sensitivity does not exist.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher2; 10-02-2014 at 03:20 PM. Reason: spelling
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The bridge on my gypsy guitar is hollowed out and the ends of the feet don't touch the sound board. I don't really know why any of this would be, but I bought a Dupont bigtone bridge and when I put it on, it changed the voice of the guitar so radically it was almost like a different guitar -- and not in good way. Seriously, the difference was extreme and very obvious. And I've loved every Dupont I've played. Fortunately I was able to return the bridge for a refund. I've heard the same change on a Gitane as well, but I've talked to other folks who have reported no change in tone when going to a Dupont bigtone bridge.
It's been a bit of a mystery to me, and it's made me very hesitant to try any sort of piezo equipped bridge on the guitar. Of course, at $300 a pop I'm unlikely to want to throw the dice anyway...
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10-07-2014, 01:45 PM #24dortmundjazzguitar Guesta glass house rather. Originally Posted by Patrick2
fast forward to 7:30 to hear wes' opinion on all your bridge and saddle talk.
Wes Montgomery Interview Part 2 - YouTube
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That was interesting. But, as it relates to what we are/were discussing it's totally pointless. So, I don't get the reference.?.? Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Wes said he "don't want to know". He didn't say he doesn't hear a difference. He said he doesn't care one way or the other "because you still have to play the guitar". That's not exactly earth shattering news.
It's also a choice to play the guitar as it is . . or change something to your own *perceived* aural preference. It was also disingenuous of Wes to make such a statement, as evidenced by how he guided his own preferences and actions. Wes had his choices/preferences about guitars, pups (didn't he once choose to reverse the orientation of the neck pup in his L5 for tonal reasons?) as well as his amps and mods to amps. He chose his preferred string type and gauge . . he chose his own pick . . . (which turned out to be a big corn on his thumb . . . lolol)
I'm pretty sure that Wes could have, would have and probably did play many gigs with what ever the hell he had handy at the time regardless of what the set up and the rig was. I think we've all pretty much done that as well. But, when we have the option to choose what we want . . based upon *what we think we hear* . . . so what??
So . . what's your point?Last edited by Patrick2; 10-07-2014 at 02:58 PM.
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