Swing / Pre-Tweed / Octal Guitar Amps (EH-150, EH-185, Valco)

**campusfive** · 11-23-2014, 06:50 PM

Hey so, there seem to be many threads of like-minded individuals inquiring about and discussing the kinds of amps from before the Tweed Fender 5E3 Deluxe, and the use of 12AX7-type tubes. I figured maybe we could start a more consistent thread for discussion.

The occasion for this was I got a new/old amp that fits the bill and thought you might like to hear about it.

So, my uncle (a pro trombone player who very awesomely got me a lesson with John Reynolds when I was first starting in the pre-bop jazz genre) had this white-tolex 50's amp he was using as a keyboard amp. I borrowed it once and it was way too underpowered to be of use (this was 12 years ago, and I was gigging with a Peavey Classic 30, and didn't have the wherewithal to mic an amp). So, I never much thought about the amp again.

Well, it finally occurred to me that it was a Oahu-branded Valco Supreme, very similar to those Vintage 47 amps I've been lusting about - and so I asked to buy it from him. He very nicely offered to give it to me, but with the caveat that it no longer worked. I gladly picked it up, and had been waiting to take it to my amp repair guy until a couple of weeks ago. My EH-185 went on the fritz (hey man, it's 75 years old, give it a break), and so I took both amps in.

When I got both back, I was amazed at how awesome the Oahu sounded, especially in my living room. I've been playing electrically almost everyday (I'm sure the neighbors in my condo love that), and just alternating back and forth between the two. While the two amps aren't exactly the same, they share enough of the octal-tube/field-coil character that I really dig that I enjoy both.

Anyway, my wife whipped out her camera while I was goofing around the other day playing along with some backing tracks. This is my ES-150 into the Oahu Supreme. The tone is at 12 o'clock, and the volume is at maybe 10-11 o'clock.
www.facebook.com/video.php?v=881072851905715

And here's one other one:
www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10100562296115979

Anyway, I'll try to get some videos up at some point comparing the EH-185, my BR-6 and the Oahu/Valco.

**Takemitsu** · 11-23-2014, 07:00 PM

Nice! Very interested in this thread, especially looking forward to hear the eh-185. I would love some eh-150 to post as well

**Jehu** · 11-23-2014, 08:19 PM

Nice sound and great playing, Jonathan. I don't have much to contribute but I'm looking forward to this thread. I've often wondered how difficult it would be to build something similar to those old amps.

**ruger9** · 11-23-2014, 09:16 PM

I would just add that there are VERY FEW *new* amps out there like this.... Johnathan already mentioned the Vintage 47s, which are Valco-inspired designs. There are two builders doing a EH-150/EH-185 inspired design, with octal tubes (but not with field coil speakers, of course)...

In the USA: Nocturne's Moonshine '39
(demo vids in link)
Nocturne Moonshine'39

In Europe: Elektra
(demo vids in link)
Elektra Amplifiers Europe on Strikingly

Thanks for starting the thread, Johnathan! Looking very forward to how it develops!

**campusfive** · 11-24-2014, 12:10 PM

I'm in touch with Tavo from Nocturne Brain, and he's only 60-90 minutes away, so we're gonna meet up at some point see about doing a demo video. I'm dying to hear it, because it sounds great in the videos.

Also, I've been in touch with the guys from Elektra and they're super nice as well. Too bad they're in Europe, because I've been wanting to try their amp for a long time as well.

Oh, the EH-185 tip, I had my amp guy (who's might actually be the world's most experience expert with EH-185's by the way - he has 10 or 12 of them and has worked on many dozens more) really give the amp a good going over. He replaced the input jacks which would barely accept most cables, and would sometimes push them out. He replaced the crumbling of plastic of the input jack for the field coil speaker connection (5 prongs for 4 contacts, strange). And lastly he rebuilt the shelf inside that amp, and added back the vibration isolating rubber insulation lining the shelf (basically just weatherstripping), so the head can sit in the cabinet again, and pick up less sympathetic vibration while at it.

I think there's really something to the fact that an EH-185 with the head inside the cabinet becomes a quasi-closed back cabinet. It really aids in projection and body (as one would expect). Of course, I hadn't thought of it until @greentone mentioned having his amp in front of him, but a lot of early guys did that, using the open back of the cab as a monitor. So, I suppose I should try that with my BR-6 or Oahu Supreme sometime.

My amp guy described the Oahu as a "firebreathing monster" when I picked it up, and when I plugged in my ES-150 he said, "oh, right, you use low output pickups." He was testing it with his Les Paul, and apparently it was a gain monster. So my final rumination is that I think these amps (especially for how low powered they are), benefit from having lower-output pickups (or at least the volume knob rolled down), so as to keep from throttling the input stage. As long as the input stage isn't clipping, you can turn the amp up more and get the subtle output stage warmth/slight breakup that is so amazing in these amps.

**ruger9** · 11-24-2014, 04:35 PM

Jonathan,

No doubt the vintage/low-output pickups are a part of the "pre-war tone" equation... do you by chance know what the output of your pickups are? DC resistances? I'm curious what they wound an old P90 to...

Hope the Moonshine '39 demo works out! Would love to hear that!!

**campusfive** · 11-24-2014, 04:37 PM

These are the times I wish I'd learned something, or anything about electronics.
Something tells me a simple multi-meter should be able to find this out, but I don't even have one of those, or know how to use it! Oy!

**ruger9** · 11-24-2014, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by campusfive

These are the times I wish I'd learned something, or anything about electronics.
Something tells me a simple multi-meter should be able to find this out, but I don't even have one of those, or know how to use it! Oy!

LOL. Well, a multimeter would do it, but technically, to get an accurate reading, you'd have to take the pickups out of the guitar. I've heard people say you can do it by plugging a short cable in, then testing the cable, and it should be close, but IDK....

**Greentone** · 11-24-2014, 09:40 PM

Campusfive,

Well, alright. I used to play a '37 ES-150. Later on, I played a '38 Recording King M-5 that had a Roy Smeck pickup (Gibson's Recording King version of the cobalt magnet Charlie Christian pickup) installed. Those two guitars are the greatest electrics I have ever enjoyed--period. They sounded very much like your guitar, even though I didn't have a Valco or EH-185 to play them through. (I mainly played them through a 5c5 octal-tube Pro Amp.)

You sound great with that combo. Keep the thread going.

**Jabberwocky** · 11-25-2014, 03:22 AM

Oh, what's this? 1941 Gibson EH125 "Brown" | Rumble Seat Music .

**LaVinci** · 11-25-2014, 10:48 AM

i am a big fan of all octal preamps....
I was unaware of the EH-family...
great great thread
I have a valco/sears - all octal
also a 54' Fender Twin Amp, 5c8 circuit 6Sc7 preamp tubes...
low power... 20-25W

**Petimar** · 11-25-2014, 11:22 AM

I had a late 40s Magnatone Student amp and lap steel. The amp was wonderful sounding, but very quiet. Turns out I couldn't use it as it was so quiet, I couldn't get a loud enough signal to record with unless I turned it all the way up. Then it produced as much noise as signal. Too bad, I really liked the sound...

Looking forward to to hearing that comparison vid Jonathan, I really like your playing and sound!

i know you are looking for pre 5e3 comments, but I have to say I recently bought a 5e3 clone head on EBay and I am really liking it for playing around the house. It's low volume cleans are really quite good!

**campusfive** · 11-25-2014, 01:07 PM

No hate on the 5e3, because I'd rather play through one of those than anything later or bigger, and it's definitely a classic for a reason. I was playing a 50's Epiphone Century with a single coil pick up through a Victoria 5e3 clone at music store a while back, and it sounded remarkably right-on. But, there's enough love for the 5e3 to go around....

And I would definitely include the Octal early Fender circuits in this thread. I've been tempted to pick up a 5c3 TV-front deluxe clone many times.

As far as the very, very low wattage amps, I too find very limited utility, even for recording. Some of the EH-100, 125, KEH and other small 8" and 10" amps have so little power that the noise drowns out the signal. They sound cool completely cranked, but that's a different thing all together. As far as noise goes, you'd sometimes be amazed at what a good amp guy can do. My EH-185 is surprisingly quiet for 75 years old. Plus, you'd be amazed at how a little power filtering/treatment can cut down on noise as well.

**Petimar** · 11-25-2014, 02:03 PM

I want to hear your BR6 as well!

**ruger9** · 11-25-2014, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by campusfive

And I would definitely include the Octal early Fender circuits in this thread. I've been tempted to pick up a 5c3 TV-front deluxe clone many times.

.

I've always wanted one of the original Champion 600s- 5C1. Probably not loud enough for performance, but probably perfect for self-enjoyment at home....

I actually bought an adaptor to use a 6SL7 (which is what the 5C1 had) in my new Champion 600... and while the tube TONE sounds (and feels) great, it's noisy. I tried both a new-production 6SL7 and a Sylvania NOS 6SL7, and in this circuit, they are too noisy. (it might be the adaptor causing the noise, but it makes no difference, it's still too noisy)

**Petimar** · 11-29-2014, 04:38 PM

There's an EH150 on EBay right now. Wish I could afford it, but alas...

**Hammertone** · 11-29-2014, 06:10 PM

Bah! Humbug...

**Greentone** · 11-29-2014, 08:07 PM

Hammertone,

Nice! You can't go wrong with those Ampegs.

**campusfive** · 11-30-2014, 12:18 AM

I actually have my eye on an Ampeg amp, but I'm not sure I could tell what kind of tubes were in it. It was definitely super-warm, like an octal-based circuit, but had a lot more clean volume.

**Petimar** · 11-30-2014, 02:43 AM

I've owned a 66 Gemini II, a 66 Reverberocket and a 63 Reverberocket. All excellent sounding Jazz amps. I'd still have the Gemini if I had a larger amp room.

**Hammertone** · 11-30-2014, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by campusfive

I actually have my eye on an Ampeg amp, but I'm not sure I could tell what kind of tubes were in it. It was definitely super-warm, like an octal-based circuit, but had a lot more clean volume.

Tube charts are found on the inside of almost all Ampeg amps, along with the model number.
Circuit diagrams for almost all Ampeg amps are widely available.
What model is it?

**bananafist** · 11-30-2014, 08:34 AM

Reading some of the history of Ampeg on various sources, it seems that when RnR came out they thought it wouldn't last and stuck with the 'outdated' jazz type sound. Sales dived, and so on.
I know in about 1962 (aged 18) when I was looking at different new amps in London, the Gretsch range with the 'frig' handles were available, Gibson tweeds and UK built Selmer and Watkins. Everybody wanted Fender amps, (v. expensive then in the UK and like hens teeth.) Ampeg were also available but only 'old jazz guys' bought them - no good at all for RnR and not loud enough!
I have a Quinn Derby head which has an octal channel which gets something of the old style sound. My Lindy Fralin amp does good big cleans and is heavy enough for me.
Interesting thread, two builders I hadn't heard about before.

**campusfive** · 11-30-2014, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

Tube charts are found on the inside of almost all Ampeg amps, along with the model number.
Circuit diagrams for almost all Ampeg amps are widely available.
What model is it?

Well, the model name on the control plate had basically ZERO google hits, and I didn't have a chance to take of the back panel to check for anything else. It's not something common, or at least the name they put on the control panel must've been something experimental or transitional, because, I came up with nothing online except the amp in question for sale.

**Hammertone** · 11-30-2014, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by campusfive

Well, the model name on the control plate had basically ZERO google hits, and I didn't have a chance to take of the back panel to check for anything else. It's not something common, or at least the name they put on the control panel must've been something experimental or transitional, because, I came up with nothing online except the amp in question for sale.

Sounds intriguing.
What's the model name?

**pubylakeg** · 12-09-2014, 06:24 PM

For the serious antique amplifier collector, this selection offered on e-bay may be of interest.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-EH-10...item33990738ce

No affiliation.