Jazz Guitar Pickups

[Greentone]

I apologize in advance for silly fanboy antics. However, I wanted to ask this august group what it thinks is the best all-time pickups for archtop guitars?

I am convinced that Seth Lover's cobalt magnet "Charlie Christian" pickup that appeared in 1937 on the Gibson ES-150 is the best pickup ever for a set in archtop pickup:



I believe that John Henry DeArmond's Model 1000/Model 1100 Rhythm Chief is the best pickup (appeared in 1947/48) ever for a floater:



Your thoughts?

[mr. beaumont]

Hard to argue with either of these. But I'll cast a vote for the humble P90.

[Greentone]

Ha! Great choice. Interestingly, the P90 was Seth Lover responding to the DeArmond pickup. (There is an article in Premier Guitar about the history of DeArmond that mentions this.)

[docbop]

The Charlie Christian is a pickup that interests me a lot I haven't heard one in person in decades. The sample I hear now it like P90 but fuller. The DeArmond same story haven't heard one in ages.

For modern PUPs for an acoustic sounding PUP I like the Kent Armstrong only thing for me is for the sound I like need to run the pickup wide open or only back off a hair if you do, seems to get dark and lose definition when backed off too much. I like the pickups on my George Benson's can get a lot of variety from them.

[newsense]

I haven't tried enough pickups to contest any of the above statements, but, if lots of guitarist agree with them, why are the vast majority of jazz guitars built with humbuckers as standard ?

The two pickups in the OP's post were designed in the 30's and 40's. Does that mean with all our modern materials and digital modelling techniques we can't design better pickups these days ? Or, is it just that the CC and Rhythm Chief set the standard for jazz tone and any change is not regarded as an improvement ?

[oldane]

The two pickups in the OP's post were designed in the 30's and 40's. Does that mean with all our modern materials and digital modelling techniques we can't design better pickups these days ? Or, is it just that the CC and Rhythm Chief set the standard for jazz tone and any change is not regarded as an improvement ?

The scarcety of the old CCs and D'Armonds is a part of the explanation. "It's rare and expensive, so it must be good!" - or maybe we are just seeing the market law of supply and demand here. "It was chosen by Charlie Christian, so it must be good!" - but then, it was the only guitar PU made at that time. One past forum member claimed the original CC had "much better mojo" - which didn't really enlighten me. They are good pickups, but I don't think they are better than anything made to day. In some respects they may not even be quite as good as the best modern PUs.

I can't speak for the D'Armonds because I have only played one for a short moment many years back. Inever see them in Denmark.

However, I do have experiences with an original 1938 CC (the one with the notch under the B string) and the Biltoft HCC as I own both. I'd say the original CC is funnier to own than to use. The sound as such is great, but it does indeed have its quirks. It's noisy, it's unbalanced from string to string, and the screws holding it to the top always work themselves loose so the shims under the screws buzz. On some photos Barney Kessel has stucked a folded piece of paper between the PU and the top on his modified 350 - likely because the whole PU had come loose and rattled. The mounting of the heavy CC PU is simply not a very good design. The HCC is much more practical in daily use (the same could be said for the Lollar CC). It's very balanced, is better shielded and stays in place without buzzing. It's sound is not quite the same as the original HCC, but with proper EQing it can come so close that I have a hard time hearing the difference. Besides, there's no law saying that it HAS to sound exactly like the original CC.

IMHO, the move from the CC to the P90 (via those sort lived single coils in the beginning of the 1940s) was justified and an improvement. Likewise, the move to the humbucker was an improvement from the working musicians point of view, because the hum of single coil PUs drove guitarists mad back then. Personally, I like the balance and greater clarity of the bass notes with single coils better but they ARE noisier.

[jazzbow]

GT, I'm in agreement with your choices and Oldane, the VV CC rider is a great pickup for any style and with a mild distortion is very expresive.

But I would like to add some more single coils to the list.

Firstly the Bigsby Cast Aluminium pickup currently made by T K Smith

Listening to the youtube clips through headphones they have an old timey sound.

Of course the old valve amp helps here too!

I haven't personally tried one as they are custom orders and not available 'off the shelf'.

My other favourite single coil would be the G&L MFD pickup designed by Leo. There's a few clips on YT but this is the shortest

Go to 1.55 for clean tone.

I'll also chime in for the extra bridge pickup option too(pun not intended)! More variation of tone and fun.
But trying to wedge in two original CC pickups would be a nightmare!

[Rob MacKillop]

That Bigsby Cast Aluminium pickup by T K Smith sounds wonderful in the neck position.

[campusfive]

TK Smith is one bad mother. Take this from a guy who had to take his place in a band after he moved out of town. Yikes, them's some big, big shoes to fill.

I often look at the evolution of guitar pickups and amps (up to the 60's) as a quest for greater fidelity - as though the engineers were trying to get more accurate reproduction of the guitar's acoustic voice.

The evolution of tone from pre-tweed octal-type amps, to tweed, to blackface, to silverface - each step is a gain in both high-end and low-end response, and a boost in clean headroom.

Similarly, the moves from CC-type, to proto-P90. to P90's, to Humbuckers, seem to be seeking an improvement in fidelity, along with accurate string balance and lack of noise. PAF's have so much more treble and bass output that my CC pickup, it's a little absurd. It's funny how the extra frequencies tend to slam the input stage of a pre-tweed amp making clean headroom almost impossible, whereas the lower output, midrange focused CC doesn't slam the input stage, and there's vastly more clean headroom.

In attempting to "solve" the problem of poor fidelity, noise and string balance, they created pickups that have a new tone, but also their own problems, as no design can be perfect. Try playing Freddie-Green style on a PAF vs. a CC - one is muddy and too sustain-y to properly do the job, where as the other is much more "acoustic" in timbre and doesn't overly sustain more like an acoustic guitar.

A similar thing happened with the up-sizing of guitar widths - they were trying to create more volume by upsizing from 16" to 17" and then 18". However, that additional volume was often made up of a fuller low end, which, in the context of a big band with a bass player, was mostly lost. The humble 16", with it's more focused mid-range emphasis, was often better suited to cutting through a big band.

Of course, the 17" and 18" guitars have their value - who can think of something better than a full 18" being played lap-piano style, where the fullness and full frequency range of the instrument can be enjoyed.

I guess it all follows the law of unintended consequences. You seek to solve one problem, and you create others. And in your old "mistakes" people find value. Good times.

[Greentone]

+1 on the tone of the aluminum TK Smith pickup. Wowsers.

[2bornot2bop]

I have to give a shout out to the Gibson BJB floater..."finest" floater I've owned yet bar none.

[Patrick2]

Isn't it all subjective to one's own taste? By the way, I think TK Smith's hands are even bigger than Tals!!!

[ruger9]

TK Smith is one bad mother. Take this from a guy who had to take his place in a band after he moved out of town. Yikes, them's some big, big shoes to fill.

.

You're making me ask.... what band was that?

[ruger9]

Similarly, the moves from CC-type, to proto-P90. to P90's, to Humbuckers, seem to be seeking an improvement in fidelity, along with accurate string balance and lack of noise. .

Just MHO, but [when humbuckers were first developed] they were a DECREASE in fidelity, over single-coil pickups. I think people were so amazed and pleased by the "no-hum" function of them, they settled for lower fidelity. Of course, the humbucker tone became loved in it's own right. And both humbuckers and single coils now run the gamut: super-clear HBs, and super-fat SCs. Along with hum-free SCs.... I'm just talking the "traditional"/"original" single coil vs humbucker designs...

[Archie]

Just MHO, but [when humbuckers were first developed] they were a DECREASE in fidelity, over single-coil pickups. I think people were so amazed and pleased by the "no-hum" function of them, they settled for lower fidelity. Of course, the humbucker tone became loved in it's own right. And both humbuckers and single coils now run the gamut: super-clear HBs, and super-fat SCs. Along with hum-free SCs.... I'm just talking the "traditional"/"original" single coil vs humbucker designs...

Yeh I love Humbuckers.

Had a single coil for jazz, it was nice I can't lie but not practical. Plus they seem a little mid happy and I like deep and rich bass.

Hate floaters, never been able to get on with them. Yes they're a humbugger but they don't sound the same.

I have extremely sensitive hearing and can hear ultra sonic frequencies like rat sonars etc that most people cant notice. To me it is incredibly painful, like a dog whistle to a dog I guess (I heard they don't like it). This is one of the reasons that I can't use 90% of tube amps (100% of Fender amps) because they have too much wave distortion and harmonics/artefacts? behind the note, especially on trebles. its the grating metallic type of ringing and its painful as hell. Essentially if you have very good hearing, you wont like Fender tube amps.

Humbuckers just have the best over all shape in the bass and treble. I play with mids all the way down. The trebles are always more rounded and the bass on a good one, tight (not like the gib57). Of course this is just through the experiences I'v had and I could be wrong.

So yeh hum buckers and solid state amps, although the Two Rock studio pro is the only tube amp, that is specifically made for people like me.

I do question the hearing of many of these amp designers but hey, if you can't hear it, it doesn't matter I guess.

[jorgemg1984]

Non muddy PAFs.

[entresz]

I'm going to vote for the Charlie Christian -

Fat, warm, clear, complex.... by far my favourite.
I have floating Charlie Christian pickups made by Pete Biltoft from Vintage Vibe on two guitars- and I've had the privilege to compare them to a real CC pickup in an ES150 and they hold up very well. In fact they don't hum as much. The VV CCs use Alnico magnets instead of Cobalt, but both the pickups I have use 38 gauge wire so tonally they still are very similar. Pete is a real genius for adapting this design to work on acoustic archtops and still retain the sound one would associate with a CC pickup.


I don't like PAF style humbuckers very much, they're just too heavy on bass and mids for me. The Bill Lawrence L90 humbucker is my favourite humbucker and that gives a lot of the PAF vibe, but sweeter highs and much better clarity. I have a set of them in my Gibson L6-S reissue. Getting a really sweet warm jazz tone is very easy despite the guitar being an all maple solid body with 24 frets - I imagine they would sound great in an ES175 or similar too. If I had a ES175 I would most likely fit L90s to it.

[campusfive]

You're making me ask.... what band was that?

The Bonebrake Syncopators. There's a CD out there with TK on it, and if you check out youtube there's a bunch of clips, some with me, some with TK.

[JGL]

I've been looking at this for a while for one of my guitars. I found a couple interesting posts on youtube. One with a combination DynaSonic in the bridge and a P90 type in the neck:

Then a review on a DuoJet with DynaSonics in both positions:

These both have different styles being played (with a little drive added) but I kind of dig them over humbuckers. The DynaSonics run about $158 online. Might be picking up a neck position model here: Amazon.com: Gretsch 006-0999-000 Dynasonic Chrome Bridge Pickup: Musical Instruments

According to the product description it is "Originally known as the Gretsch-DeArmond Fidelatone".

[Greentone]

Yeah, TK Smith has some mitts.

[Greentone]

Those Gretsch DynaSonics were pretty good sounding. They were made by DeArmond, of course. I thought Chet's early stuff with the orange Gretsch with the white pickups into the Standel sounded great.

[JGL]

Yeah - I think the top end is nice for sure on the DynaSonics. It would be interesting to see if they required a gate to get rid of any noise on a traditional archtop? I'm wondering how I'd have a ground back to the player? Good problem for me to work out : /

[JGL]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Seymour Duncan site has this great "clean" sound demo (beginning of second video) of their take on the DynaSonic pickup:

Duncan's DynaSonic™ Replacement - Seymour Duncan Specialized

[wildschwein]

Bill Lawrence L90s or L500Rs aren't traditional choices but they both have a very even response with amazing clarity. Throw in a Q-filter (=LC network) and a regular tone knob and you have a lot of passive tone shaping capabilities. I like PAF-style humbuckers too but they do have a more coloured tone.

[drbhrb]

I just can't accept any amount of hum. Put a noiseless neck pickup on my tele for that reason. Would like to try the famed lollar CC pickup but if I feel it would be a waste of money as some hum is expected. Nothing ruins a ballad like bzzzzzzz