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It is a common opinion that if you want huge volume and projection from your acoustic archtop you need a high action. Some will tell that a 1\4 inch is the minimum (6 mm) and that 1\2 is better (12 mm). I dont get it.
If you do not want fret buzzing you do not need that high and if more angle over the bridge (or more pressure) was important the neck angle would be more important and you would get the same result while keeping low action. The only advantage to very high action I can see is that it is easier to pick over the fretbord (which is nice) and a good set-up is as critical.
So how does high action contribute to high volume or projection?
Thank
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02-24-2015 12:05 AM
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With a higher action the strings can be stummed harder before they slap against the frets. Greater amplitude = greater volume.
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I may add that around 1/4" action for acoustic big band work is fine, but I haven't seen anybody but Freddie Green use a ½" action. There has been a lot of speculation on why he had his action that high.
When you look at pictures of him playing, the action was not always that high - it came gradually. Some have suggested that it enabled him to get some sound out of strings which were only half pressed down thus getting his "one note chords" with a muted hint of one or two extra notes - "1½ note chords" so to speak. I can see how a very high action can be helpful for that - but not as high as ½".
I myself have wondered if it was simply the result of a progressively worsening neck set problem on his Gretsch Eldorado. After all, those old Gretsches are not known for the best structural stability. A Danish rhythm guitarist who befriendeed Freddie Green has told that he had the opportunity to try that well worn Gretsch and it was in a terrible condition, but Green didn't seem to find the time to be without it for repair and never got around to have it fixed because he could play it despite its quirks.
Likely, we'll never get the secret behind Greens high action. His playing style was highly ideosyncratic, and I don't think anyone have quite found out was was going on. He was not revealing it himsef, being of the old school who didn't gladly give trade secrets away because that could mean a lost job. Jim Hall once asked Green if he could try Greens guitar, and Green answered outright "No!". Hall then asked Green if he had a "fatherly advice" from one guitarist to another. Green answered: "Always pack your bag the evening before you leave, and put your band uniform on top." He seemed to be more willing to let amateurs, who were not potential competitors, try the instrument. When they only managed to play a few notes before the muscles of their left forearm grew sore from lactic acid, he would with a dead pan look on his face suggest some woodshedding.Last edited by oldane; 02-24-2015 at 11:06 AM.
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I don't understand your measures. Action is the height at the 12th fret. In my guitars it can be 1 mm max.
Originally Posted by DanTheMan
Where are you measuring 6mm high (or 12mm)? It's impossible...
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Will definitally affect the volume because of string movement but it will have even more effect on playability:
Freddie Green had super human action, I could never set my guitar that high
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It perfectly possible. Just raise the bridge height with the thumb wheels. In my book a 1mm action at the 12th fret is a VERY low action. If you can't raise the action any higher, there's something wrong with your guitars. FWIW, on my electric archtops, I have the action at the 12th fret set aorund 2½mm (with a 15-56 strings set). On my acoustic archtop used for 4-to-the-bar rhythm playing I have the action set to around 4½ mm (with a 13-56 string set). In the picture posted above by Vinlander, Freddie Greens actions seems to be ½" ~ 12mm - or thereabout. Originally Posted by paco1976
Last edited by oldane; 02-24-2015 at 01:35 PM.
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I have my action where I want it, thanks. My question was rather "who wants a 6mm action?", for playing slide maybe, but other than that... Originally Posted by oldane
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Ah, that makes more sense. But what you said was that it was impossible ..... Originally Posted by paco1976
And yes, some do want a 6mm action - like I want a 4½mm action on my acoustic archtop to have it sound powerful enough without electrifying it. Actually it was the norm back in the big band days. I agree that such a set up is not at all suited for delicate and fast single string solos or fancy long stretch chords. But then, that's not the way one plays when playing classic rhythm guitar. There one plays two, ot three note chords, so it's not so unmanageable as it might seem (though you still need to build up thick callouses
).
One reason to set the action higher than 1mm could be to avoid string slap and get a nice clean sound. It also makes a wider dynamic range possible. But it's all very personal and subject to individual taste.Last edited by oldane; 02-24-2015 at 01:50 PM.
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Big band guitarists with acoustic archtops in the old days, that makes more sense.
Not my cup of tea though
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Not that hard for his style. Remember that he was not playing single line runs. He functions like a higher version of the bass player, but almost the opposite. Originally Posted by vinlander
But I always wondered about how far back he had to set the bridge for intonation.
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I would have thought with that high an action the guitar would go sharp wherever you played on the fretboard.
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That's where the floating archtop bridge comes in handy (and that's why I don't like pinned bridges - the pins lock the bridge in one postion thereby reducing how much the action can be raised or lowered and the guitar still intonate correctly). The bridge can be moved further towards the tailpiece to compensate for the sharpness due to the stretching af the strings. That said, they may creep som intonation inaccuracies in despite a properly placed bridge with such a high action, but one should be able to correct it with a custom cut compensated bridge where the compensation may be a bit different from what is needed with a lower action. It's also my experience that with a high action the guitar intonates best - and plays most comfortably - when the neck relief is greater than with a low action. The relief should be set so the fretting resistance stays the same all the way up the neck. Others may beg to differ on this point. There's hardly any single point of guitar setup where opinions differ as much as when discussing neck relief. Originally Posted by Para
Last edited by oldane; 02-24-2015 at 03:28 PM.
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Originally Posted by DanTheMan
12mm is also good for slicing cheese.
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If the strings are a bit too low and they buzz even a tiny amount, this will dampen the sound and thus slow the sustain of the sting when fretted. What I've always tried to do if I wasn't happy with the way my guitar sounded, I would make tiny adjustments then try it out. The more time I spend with my guitar in my hands, either playing it or adjusting it, makes me feel spiritually closer to the instrument.. Soon the adjustments you think it needs become less and less necessary and you can get back into more and more playing! John
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@GuyBoden Mahatma Gandhi is absolutely right on. I bet if he had my 330 in his hands it would sound like a harp fro heaven. John
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The Freddie Green action is insane!
That's the sort of thing you see on a Dobro!
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my understanding is that the high action came from a guitar that developed a neck bow. Back in those days there weren't forums and boutique guitar builders on every corner. Many players never took the guitar into the repair shop and he was playing 99% rhythm guitar so he didn't bother to get it fixed.
It happens that high action gives you an increased dynamic range. It's not always a no brainer to do that though. Metheny and Benson both use really low action. Some guitars like the sadowsky jim hall actually sound better with lower action and a little bit of string buzz IMO. It becomes part of the sound's character.
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Dave Hunter posted a tip once. Everyone was doing the "raise the action until it stops buzzing" approach. Sometimes even if you dont hear a loud rattle there can be a certain amount of choke out on the initial attack. Some people dont realise this. It isnt a sustained rattle so it isnt as noticable but it will affect the sustain.
His suggestion: Put the action waaay to high and then start to lower it until you can play comfortably. The goal not being how low can you go but how high can you stand.
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That's flawed IMO. I have found that playing with heavier strings or higher action takes a week or two to get used to it. I use Thomastik .12-.050 on my 175 and when I got my ES 137 I put chrome .012 strings on it. They are heavier and have considerably higher tension. After about a week of playing it 2-3 hours a day, it felt fine whereas originally it felt extremely stiff and unforgiving. I think raising it until it stops buzzing is the best way to go.
Originally Posted by SamBooka
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_Acoustically_, it has always been my experience that higher action equals more volume. I have a blonde Gretsch that I keep a high action on (a '50 or '51 Syncromatic)...my "Freddie Green" guitar...and it is quite loud. I also have a '70 Guild flattop with a higher action...again, it is quite loud.
I don't find the high actions objectionable, when it comes to playing. You get used to just about anything. Actually, I simply cannot stomach acoustic guitars that are set up with low actions and skinny strings. They sound to snappy and tinny, to me. Leave 'em to the "deedley-dee kids" who frequent Guitar Center on the weekends...Jersey cowboys, wanted dead or alive...wait, that was 25 years ago...
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Higher action = more volume... to a point.
I've found there is a sweet spot for each guitar. I used to have my action really high, and pick with 5mm wegens, but I was basically throttling the top with volume, so much so that it didn't necessarily sound good and it resulted in mediocre sustain. I never realized how little sustain I got and how bad the intonation was until one day I played some immaculately setup guitars on a visit to Old Towne Pickin' Parlor outside of Denver. Since the guitars in question were outstanding instruments (a '28 L5, a '46 Deluxe, and a Collings 16" L5 style) I didn't realize I could make my guitar play and sound like that. Then I found a shop in LA with a great sounding, perfectly playing 16" acoustic non-cut, and I asked them who set it up. The answer was that they set it up in house, and yes, of course, they could set up my guitar. Once I found a guitar tech that knew how to find the sweet spot where volume, tone and sustain met up with playability - it was life changing. My guitar easily sounds better than most of the proper vintage guitars I've seen, if only because they are set up like crap and my Eastman 805 is set up perfectly.
My action is still pretty high, but high enough that the guitar barks and shouts, but it's not getting hoarse in the process. Every once in a while my tech lowers it just a bit too much, and I have him back it right back up, but generally its perfect every time. Also, having slightly more reasonable action means the intonation is spot on from stem to stern. Before, playing Allan Reuss-style chord melody stuff was quite a challenge with high action, and no sustain. Now, it's so much easier to let the guitar do the work of amplifying itself.
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keep in mind that string guage also plays a part in this equation. When I studied with Martino in the '70s he used:
.016, .018, .028, .036, .046, .056 strings and extremely high action. I remember watching him struggle to play an F Barre Chord on that guitar.
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