Suggestions please - archtop acoustic, cutaway

**Sada Yairi** · 05-06-2015, 07:59 PM

Ok, I'm consulting the experts here. I'm after an acoustic (f-hole) archtop and I can't find many options to suit what I want, so I'm looking for suggestions please.

Purpose: This guitar will be used mainly acoustically, and mainly for blues, jazz, and some old-school classic rock. I'll occasionally amp it up, so I do need a pickup but for occasional use I'm not worried about feedback.

Features: Acoustic body (at least 3 inch depth I think). Venetian cutaway. Floating neck pickup.

Preferences: 9-10 inch radius fret board (ideally ebony but that seems unrealistic). Matte finish.

Price range: Max $1300AUD, so about $1000USD (with case).

So far the only close options seem to be (with corresponding limitations):
Guild A-150 savoy (no matte finish available)
Washburn J600 (wrong fret board radius)
Godin 5th Ave jazz (wrong fret board radius & too expensive)
Eastman 503 (non-floating pickup, body too thin?)
D'Angelico EXL-1 (probably too expensive)

Any ideas? Thanks very much.

**Jabberwocky** · 05-07-2015, 12:22 AM

Guild A-150 Savoy with some judicious application of Liberon 0000 steel-wool all over the guitar to take it down from shiny to matte.

**Sada Yairi** · 05-07-2015, 01:59 AM

Not a bad idea that. I really prefer a matte or satin finish particularly on the neck, so that approach might work well.

**whiskey02** · 05-07-2015, 06:53 AM

You should be able to find a used Eastman 805ce if you're not hell bent on the matte finish.

**Sada Yairi** · 05-07-2015, 07:24 AM

Hadn't considered the 805 due to the price. I'll have a look around (now that I've checked out the Eastman site and seen how good they are), but finding one cheap enough to be able to ship it to Aus and not break the budget seems unlikely.

**Klatu** · 05-07-2015, 07:45 AM

My teacher plays a Godin 5th Avenue that plays and sounds great. The other recommendation that I would make would be a Loar. There have been reports that the sound is extraordinary but the construction and playability can be spotty, so the best course of action would be to make sure the seller has a liberal return policy and answers your questions clearly before pulling the trigger.

If you want to listen to some good recorded examples of acoustic archtops in action, check out fellow forum member rpguitar's youtube page. He has taken the time to post audio comparisons of various high end guitars as well as tutorials on how to coax the best sound possible from your instrument.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrF...vOSyku3xnaCg1g

**Doctor Jeff** · 05-07-2015, 12:47 PM

I am always a fan of the Godins. The Kingpin is a wonderful guitar, no cutaway though except on the 2-pickup models. You can do what I did and get an acoustic 5th Avenue and add a floating pickup, with no effect on the acoustic quality. It is a nice-sounding acoustic, though not too loud of course.

I personally don't find much to quibble with about the fretboard radius. I play a flat nylon string and Godins, Peerless, Tele, etc., and find that I adjust to the neck pretty quickly. YMMV.

One other relatively cheap option is a used Harmony or Kay. A nice 16" pressed top acoustic with a cutaway from the 1960's like the Brilliant Cutaway can be had for $5-800. Definitely cheaper than any other American-made acoustic archie, and VERY nice sounding. Mine has a fairly wide neck width and shallow radius.

The D'Angelico is about $1300 MSRP, I saw one locally for quite a bit less--played it, super-sounding and playing guitar, high quality, and absolutely beautiful. That's not a bad price at all for a guitar of this quality. Let's face, nothing says jazz guitar like this Mel Bay special...

BTW, just looking at your forum name, couldn't you make your own? I mean, Yairi guitars are quite famous!

**nopedals** · 05-07-2015, 01:32 PM

The only real acoustic on that list is the Eastman. I would look at Loars as well.

**spiral** · 05-07-2015, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by nopedals

The only real acoustic on that list is the Eastman. I would look at Loars as well.

Exactly this. If acoustic sound is your primary concern, most of those are going to be underwhelming, other than the Eastman. The Gretsch G100 and G400 have cutaway versions and while they are laminates, sound pretty good acoustically and can be had for your budget used.

@ Sada Yairi: you may want to do a search for the Eastman 503 as there were two really recent threads and one of them focused on the acoustic sound of it.

**Sada Yairi** · 05-07-2015, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

I am always a fan of the Godins. The Kingpin is a wonderful guitar, no cutaway though except on the 2-pickup models. You can do what I did and get an acoustic 5th Avenue and add a floating pickup, with no effect on the acoustic quality. It is a nice-sounding acoustic, though not too loud of course.

BTW, just looking at your forum name, couldn't you make your own? I mean, Yairi guitars are quite famous!

The Godin is appealing except for having no cutaway. I've thought long and hard about that, but I've decided I do need the cutaway.

And re the name, it's a convenient tag from my classical, a guitar I've had for about 30 years. I don't get rid of guitars, hence all the research and trying things before I buy one. Finally bought a Tele a few months back, after about a year of gradually working through all the options.

**Sada Yairi** · 05-07-2015, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by spiral

Exactly this. If acoustic sound is your primary concern, most of those are going to be underwhelming, other than the Eastman. The Gretsch G100 and G400 have cutaway versions and while they are laminates, sound pretty good acoustically and can be had for your budget used.

@ Sada Yairi: you may want to do a search for the Eastman 503 as there were two really recent threads and one of them focused on the acoustic sound of it.

Ok, this is interesting. Why is the Eastman the only really acoustic one on the list? It has a shallower body than the others listed (2 9/16 rather than 3 or more), and the other features (floating pickup etc) seem the same. Is it the difference between carved top and laminated top?

**mr. beaumont** · 05-07-2015, 10:05 PM

That's a pretty big distinction.

**spiral** · 05-08-2015, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Sada Yairi

Is it the difference between carved top and laminated top?

Yes, in general. There are some exceptions: some higher-end laminates like the Sadowsky and Dale Unger American Dream / Martin CF-1 use very light laminate plates so they are very resonate and sound good acoustically but they are also north of $4k. All of the laminates you listed are built fairly heavy, with poly finish, so aren't going to sound as nice as the Eastman acoustically. I've not played the A-150 so that could be an exception: if the top is fairly thin, not heavily braced, and it's not covered in a thick finish, it could sound good. Given your guidelines (a wide range of uses), and just your list of candidates, the 503 is a winner by a wide margin, IMO.

**entresz** · 05-08-2015, 01:55 AM

The Gretsch G400 is a nice sounding guitar, mine has a solid pressed top, X Braced. Nice sounding acoustically, but there are louder 17'' guitars out there for sure. I have a floating Charlie Christian pickup made by Pete Biltoft on mine. The playability and craftsmanship is superb. A used one would fall in to your price range.

**Sada Yairi** · 05-08-2015, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by spiral

Yes, in general. There are some exceptions: some higher-end laminates like the Sadowsky and Dale Unger American Dream / Martin CF-1 use very light laminate plates so they are very resonate and sound good acoustically but they are also north of $4k. All of the laminates you listed are built fairly heavy, with poly finish, so aren't going to sound as nice as the Eastman acoustically. I've not played the A-150 so that could be an exception: if the top is fairly thin, not heavily braced, and it's not covered in a thick finish, it could sound good. Given your guidelines (a wide range of uses), and just your list of candidates, the 503 is a winner by a wide margin, IMO.

So something like the Gretsch New Yorker, which is an acoustic, must be a pressed solid top? The specs say it's solid but it can't be carved.

Gretsch® Guitars :: Roots

I like the tones:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ska7UPeCc9U

Are there more options around like that?

**nopedals** · 05-08-2015, 09:25 AM

If a guitar's ad copy does not say "carved" it is not carved.

There are *some* laminate guitars that sound better than *some* carved top guitars. A Gibson L5 CES is a carved top with dreadful acoustic sound. But if you want an acoustic guitar, get an acoustic guitar.

Laminate guitars or solid guitars with floating pickups are just silly.

**Longways to Go** · 05-08-2015, 11:36 AM

I know you are asking specifically about acoustic archtops, but why not just go with a flat top?
I have steel string and nylon string flat tops that play jazz just great. I love archtops too, but the flat tops just plain sound good!

**spiral** · 05-08-2015, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Longways to Go

I know you are asking specifically about acoustic archtops, but why not just go with a flat top?
I have steel string and nylon string flat tops that play jazz just great. I love archtops too, but the flat tops just plain sound good!

and about 100x's cheaper. I have a Loar parlour guitar that has a really cool mid-rangey sound almost like an archtop.

**entresz** · 05-09-2015, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by nopedals

If a guitar's ad copy does not say "carved" it is not carved.

There are *some* laminate guitars that sound better than *some* carved top guitars. A Gibson L5 CES is a carved top with dreadful acoustic sound. But if you want an acoustic guitar, get an acoustic guitar.

Laminate guitars or solid guitars with floating pickups are just silly.

I agree for the most part, however there are some guitars that are not carved top instruments that I would hate to fit a routed pickup on. I have a 1958 Hofner Senator that's all laminated, but the laminate is incredibly light. The guitar weighs only about 4lbs. I use it for gypsy jazz, it's incredibly loud and punchy. I have a DeArmond FHC guitar mike that I fit on it every so often and it sounds great with that.

One example of where I think it is silly though its the ES165 Herb Ellis model with the floating pickup. I don't understand what the reasoning for fitting a floating pickup on a 175 was. Makes no sense at all.

**Sada Yairi** · 05-10-2015, 02:50 AM

So I happen to like the tones of the Gretsch New Yorker - is that naivety or what? It's not a carved top, but is clearly intended to be an acoustic (available with or without a pickup). Why does an acoustic archtop have to have a carved top? What am I missing?

**spiral** · 05-10-2015, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sada Yairi

So I happen to like the tones of the Gretsch New Yorker - is that naivety or what? It's not a carved top, but is clearly intended to be an acoustic (available with or without a pickup). Why does an acoustic archtop have to have a carved top? What am I missing?

I posted that both the G100 and G400 from Gretsch would be good non-carved options. I presume the New Yorker is built in a similar way as the G100, I've just never played one. No cutaway option. The Guild A150 might sound good unplugged too. You'll have to try them for yourself. Keep in mind we were reacting to your initial list.

It doesn't have to be carved to sound good but typically laminates are not built for acoustic sounds, they are meant to reduce feedback so they are less acoustically resonant. Carved tops tend to be louder with more complex harmonics. Laminates usually have less volume and less complex tone because they are layers of wood stuck together with glue and that tends to vibrate less easily than a single piece of carved wood.

I would encourage you to find an Eastman or a Loar so you can hear for yourself how a carved top vs. laminate sounds. Ultimately you should get what feels and sounds good to you.

**rpguitar** · 05-10-2015, 07:01 PM

Have you ever personally played a fine, fully carved acoustic archtop? If not, then you should, and afterwards you might know what you're missing.

**Sada Yairi** · 05-11-2015, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by spiral

I posted that both the G100 and G400 from Gretsch would be good non-carved options. I presume the New Yorker is built in a similar way as the G100, I've just never played one. No cutaway option. The Guild A150 might sound good unplugged too. You'll have to try them for yourself. Keep in mind we were reacting to your initial list.

It doesn't have to be carved to sound good but typically laminates are not built for acoustic sounds, they are meant to reduce feedback so they are less acoustically resonant. Carved tops tend to be louder with more complex harmonics. Laminates usually have less volume and less complex tone because they are layers of wood stuck together with glue and that tends to vibrate less easily than a single piece of carved wood.

I would encourage you to find an Eastman or a Loar so you can hear for yourself how a carved top vs. laminate sounds. Ultimately you should get what feels and sounds good to you.

That sort of specific information is really helpful, thanks. The G100 was one of my initial options, but it's listed as only 2.75" thick which would surely mean it can't project a decent volume acoustically - am I right about that? That's what made me discount it anyway.

And given what you've explained above, then a pressed top would be similar in performance to a carved top (rather than a laminate) in terms of resonance - why the fuss over carved rather than pressed?

Again, I'm not disagreeing at all (especially since I haven't played all these options yet), I'm just trying to work it all out. I have experience with classical guitars and over recent years I've developed experience with electrics, but I'm really just starting to learn about acoustics.