-
Before you go thinking I'm on a guitar buying binge, I'm sort of hoping that *this* is *the* guitar.
So, I've been cyberstalking every guitar store that deals in acoustic archtops for a couple months looking for a 16" L-5, or at least that was the theoretical goal. The very best examples of acoustic archtop I've ever played were the '28-29 L-5's I've played, along with Joe Vinikow's personal 16" walnut-backed broadway, and John Collins' D'Angelico Excel. I also hadn't played a bad 20's L-5, although I'm sure they're out there. There was also a wonderful 40's Deluxe owned by my friend that owns the acoustic music store in Denver. I had an idea that a 20's L-5 would be a good match, but I also knew that not having owned any vintage acoustic archtops, I had a lot to learn.
I picked up my 1935 Gibson L-12 because I spotted a good deal, and indicia that the guitar would be something special (super light weight, a ton of play wear). But I also was interested in learning about what an "advanced", x-braced guitar would sound and feel like. Well, after dialing in the strings gauges to really make the guitar sing, it's been a very interesting and inspiring learning process. I've been so inspired to play solo guitar, chord-melody type stuff, and it's because the guitar is it's own orchestra. Deep bass, nice treble zing, and sustain.
Of course, it has drawbacks. I can't wait to swap out the tuners, and address the frets - nothing worse than playing chord melody and just one random fret here or there is just out of tune enough to drive you crazy! More importantly, playing in a band context, the guitar doesn't really hurt for projection or sheer volume, but the lack of midrange punch and rounded off tone meant that it didn't cut through enough.
So, learning from that, I figured I would be better suited to something on the "punchier" edge of the spectrum: Epiphones and parallel-braced Gibsons. If nothing else, I had a great sounding chord melody guitar I could keep, and so I figured I should be looking for more of a rhythm and single-note cannon. And so I kept cyberstocking.
I noticed Lark Street music listed a 1931 Epiphone De Luxe that looked awfully familiar. I recognized it as my friend Ted's guitar, so I checked with him about it. He's known me and my playing for 10 years, and he said this would be the perfect guitar for me, and that it easily beat out a 16" L-5. After a bit more research, I found the archived listing on archtop.com: Fine Vintage Instruments Online from when Ted bought it. (1932 Epiphone Deluxe) Anyway, I got a 48 hour approval period, and Ted basically intimated he'd buy it back from me if I didn't love it, so I couldn't say no with such guarantees.
I had it shipped directly to the music store that does my setups, rather than waste time waiting for it to arrive at home and then drive across town to the store. They checked it out and everything was on the up and up, at least for a 83 year old guitar -it's got a few fleas, but nothing pressing. We strung it up and it sounded great. We went with 12's, plus a 13 and 17, because that was what was on the guitar. I'm probably going to try 13's with a 14 and 18 today.
What I wasn't prepared for was that, at this point, compared to the L-12, the De Luxe isn't obviously "better." Crap. Of course, the biggest difference is between a $5 bottle of wine and a $30 bottle of wine, and so my expectations were a bit of out whack. So, I played the two guitars back and forth, I started to pick out the differences. For a guitar that was supposed to be a boomer, I was surprised that the L-12 was easily as loud, but of course this is without the context of a band. There's definitely a scooped-mid sound to the L-12, and a bit more mids in the De Luxe, but without being nasal. Taking the guitar home, it started to warm up to me, and I to it. Here's a couple videos for comparison sake:
Cherry - single notes and bit of chord soloing over a backing track
A hastily stitched together clip of my three guitars playing chord melody:
The full video of "Ain't Misbeahavin" on the De Luxe:
.
Number one, the most surprising thing is how much it reminds me of my Eastman, and number two how much I desperately need to play this thing in a group setting in the next 24 hours, because although both the L-12 and De Luxe together were cheaper than many of the 16" L-5's I've looked at, the De Luxe wasn't exactly cheap, and I'm not gonna keep it unless it knocks me out.
-
06-11-2015 12:48 PM
-
I've had a few 16" Deluxes over the yrs.
one I bought from a friend was particular great sounding even though it had a clear overspray about an inch thick- a lot of those early Epis have a tendency for finish flaking.
a famous country artist's guitar tech bought it from me when he came through town.
great guitars, but I still prefer a 20s L-5, you probably will too.
face it, it's inevitable--start saving now......
-
Well I closed my eyes for the whole thing. Then I played again and this time opened my eyes periodically when I liked or didn't like something. The Epi has a nicer tone, but not as powerful. JMO.
-
I go with the Epi also. Though you picked the perfect tune for the guitar. And,I think you enjoyed the Epi more just in the freeness of your playing. It looked to me that you were enjoying the ride on a new stallion and letting him run. That's the keeper.
-
Very nice, enjoy the "ride" :-)
-
I like the tone of the Epi, sounds great!
-
Unlike Woody, I kept my eyes open. Jonathan, what I saw is that none of those guitars raised a smile from you. Not once. Take that for what it's worth.
Originally Posted by CampusFive
They all sound nice to me and you play very well. Playing alone at home I like the edge of the Epi.
Yessir. I suspect that you will find that unamplified, in a band, from 25 feet out the differences are nearly imperceptible. Originally Posted by CampusFive
How much un-amplified playing do you do?
-
btw, even though I prefer small bodied 20's L-5's overall, if you're looking for a strong mid-range sound, consider a late 40s non cut L-5. I've had a bunch and to my ears they're the punchiest sounding 17" Gibsons, really good for rhythm playing.
-
Jonathan you posted an L12, a stromberg, and this Deluxe in one month time. If you post another, I will have to report you to the forum moderators
I really like the Epi.
I really like the L12 too.
-
this one is a refin too, but you have to be able to read Archtop dot com lingo: "protected beneath a light dusting of vintage style nitrocellulose lacquer applied to the instrument as a whole" Originally Posted by wintermoon
-
mine wasn't a refin, just oversprayed, but that's exactly why I've only had one transaction w/them/him. Originally Posted by fws6
if you're not knowledgeable and don't read the listing VERY carefully you could get burned.
-
Hi Jonathan,
We met at a jam session some years ago in Laguna Beach. My band opened for the John Jorgensen Quintet at a music festival there. I recall you playing an acoustic archtop with a small amp as your guitar was unable to compete with the louder Selmer style guitars that we were all playing.
In your composite video, I think the Gibson sounds best. The best sounding acoustic archtop that I have heard is my bandmates 28 L-5. He also had a 34 L-5 that I thought was loud but quite tinny sounding. All 16 inch L-5's are not created equal!
I have 2 wonderful sounding vintage D'Angelicos but have played a few of John D'Angelico's guitars that underwhelmed me as well.
There are many vintage archtops to choose from and finding the "one" for you may take a bit of time. The right guitar is out there, she may not even be for sale at the moment, but if you are patient, she will eventually show up. In the meantime, enjoy the journey and concentrate on Gibsons, Epiphones, D'Angelicos and Guilds. Your dream guitar will most likely have one of those names on the headstock. I do not think that the Benedetto style acoustic archtop will meet your sonic needs.
Cheers,
Marc
Hot Club Pacific - Monterey Bay Area's Premier Swing Band
-
I preferred the Epiphone, to me it sounded lovely, great playing a real nostalgia trip for me.
-
They all sound great, but I like the Epi. Maybe because, believe it or not, it sounds a lot like my '51 Epi Zenith, which is 16" and parallel braced, but a down market version with laminated sides and back.
The surprise is that the Eastman sounds so much like the Epi and does quite well in the back to back comparison.
-
There really is quite a difference between the three, and from that video I definitely prefer the Epi. It has a sweetness to it that really works for your Reuss block chord style, but I could definitely see it not cutting through in the big band. If your L-12 doesn't cut through either, I'd personally be keeping the Epi out of the two. (Or ditching both and waiting for the one you really want!)
-
I expected to reject the Epiphone, but nope... it slays the Gibson in this case. You sound much more expressive and natural on the brighter, more dynamic little Epi. I had my '33 L-12 in my hands at the time and jammed along with you - the two guitars are cut from the same cloth. It's the early 16" sound, built to be sweeter and more of an all-around instrument than the later big band/loud archtops.
Whether that works for you in your gigging context, I dunno. But as a solo or small ensemble instrument, the Epi is a winner.
-
I listened to those videos twice; I have to agree that the Epi wins easily. The Gibson seems extremely bright (although visually, a bit more appealing to me). The Eastman sounds very similar to the Epi, and I also agree that you seemed more thrilled playing the Epi, FWIW. Either way, congrats! I just have to say that in a blindfold test, I would easily choose the Epiphone.
-
I love the tone of Epi the best, but the Gibson seemed just a bit louder.
-
That comparison was lots of fun and quite interesting....and your playing made it a great way to hear what these guitars can do.
I'm enjoying the Epi Deluxe the most in this context, but when I get my ears out of that one, its easy to shift quite easily into an appreciation for the L-12.
I've recently acquired a '32 Broadway, so understandably this beautiful '32 Deluxe has my attention!
Thanks!
Diane
-
Well, that was very interesting...like several others, I listened through, several times in fact, without seeing which guitar you were playing.
Conclusions
If I were choosing ONE guitar on the basis of that video, it would be the Epiphone - it just had the best tone. More complex, fuller, warmer...whatever expression you like, there was just "more to it".
The Gibson's tone was also great, and yes it appeared to be louder; but for me it cut through at the expense of being too bright by comparison, almost a little shrill at times.
The Eastman did not disgrace itself by any means and actually quite impressed me. For someone outside the USA, where we see fewer vintage archtops, but who wants this type of guitar - it's clearly a viable option.
Thanks for inviting us into the process.
-
Congratulations, Jonathan!
Your playing is great and the three guitars sounded very good. I am not going to say that one is "better", but in a blind test, I preferred the Epiphone. But it was close. I really loved the mellowness of the Gibson, but the clarity of the Epi made a small difference for me. Two great guitars for sure!
Now, solo guitar is one thing, and large band is quite another. Regardless of volume, I'd probably still prefer the parallel braced guitar in that situation.
Please let us know how your test rides go.
-
The Epi sounds great! On the comparison vid, the Gibson has a "mid-range honk" that is sorta unpleasant (although maybe it's highlighted by the recording equipment)...
-
Wow, that was a tense couple of days.
I was really not digging the guitar. It lacked what I describe as "openness": meaning the instrument didn't seem like it wanted to vibrate. When a guitar speaks easily, it's almost as though it magnifies that effort you put in, and the Epi seems liked it was absorbing the force. There was little sustain or what some people call "natural reverb."
It came with 12's+13/17, and I put my own Martin SP 80/20's and had the action set up to my usual profile. It was very disappointing at first, but I couldn't tell if it was my own unfair expectations. Playing the x-braced, advanced and super worn-in L-12 is a very different experience, and I didn't want to be comparing apples to oranges.
I tried putting heavier strings on it, and that didn't help. I finally got somebody to play it so I could hear it, and it definitely sounded good from out in front. But it was clear that the L-12 spoke just so easily and just boomed when you barely touched it. So I decided to send it back, and was going to box it up this morning.
Last night, I figured I should play it a bunch and try to learn about it before it goes away. I put the lighter gauge strings back on, and tweaked that action back down a bit. All of sudden it just came to life, finally. The "magnifying" quality, the natural reverb, what I call "openness". I guess it's not going back. Oy vey.
-
Congrats on the Epiphone.
A fine instrument fom the 1st Golden Age of American archtops.
All I have to say is…..
-
I have found this to be true with all of my acoustic archtops. To me, the "heavy strings required to move the top" thing is passé. I appreciate Freddy Green's iconic place in history, but it's 180° from my perspective. Lighter strings coax a more gentle and nuanced voice that really works for me. I keep 12-53 80/20 on all my acoustics. Originally Posted by campusfive
Reply With Quote
Group improvisation
Today, 09:13 AM in Improvisation