Benedetto Manhattan 90 s with parallel bracing

**fabiansey** · 06-19-2015, 10:04 AM

Hello,
my main guitar is a Benedetto Bravo which I really love. I always wanted to have a carved Benedetto- if possible from the master himself. Now I was offered a Manhattan from the year 91. Looks great on the pics and the price is somehow ok. BUT: The seller told me it is parallel braced, not x braced.
I have not played the guitar because the shop is about 3 hours by car away from my hometown. Has anyone of you played an older Benedetto with parallel bracing? What is your opinion about the whole thing?
I am afraid I do not get the "real" thing and that this affects the value of such an instrument.

**oldane** · 06-19-2015, 11:27 AM

I don't know about resale value of parallel braced vs. X braced Benedettos. In the 1990s Bob built with X braces but would do Parallel braces on request. I think X braced is be far the most common. I don't think one can say that one of the two is "the real thing". It's about personal preference.

**rpguitar** · 06-19-2015, 11:50 AM

I would say it's very much the real thing, but it's not the quintessential Benedetto design sought after by some players/collectors. In terms of value, does the price it's being offered at now reflect that? It will probably be necessary to price it appropriately later, so make sure it's priced appropriately now. That should be a constant. I'm sure it's a great guitar built to exacting standards, regardless of the bracing pattern.

**SierraTango** · 06-19-2015, 12:21 PM

My 90 Cremona is X braced. My advice would be to drive the 3 hours and play it. It's probably a wonderful instrument and a sizeable investment. If it suits YOU, buy it and cherish it. There won't be anymore Bob only built guitars as far as I can tell.
Good luck!

**fabiansey** · 06-19-2015, 03:52 PM

Thank you guys,
you are probably right- I should just go there and play it.
I will let you know if I buy the instrument

**jads57** · 06-19-2015, 06:18 PM

I was told the advantage of parallel bracing was for acoustic projection. But that can't be said of a L-5CES which has to use parallel bracing, and doesn't have many acoustic qualities at all. Seems most higher end acoustic archtops have X bracing and laminates mostly use parallel.

**SierraTango** · 06-19-2015, 06:38 PM

OP you may be aware of this, however the "Building an Archtop Guitar" book by Benedetto has a listing of serial numbers from that era. It may have some detail as to who ordered the guitar originally, unless it was a reseller/dealer like Mandolin Bros. was around that time. Just a thought, if it was ordered by someone that is still around you could contact them for details.
My Cremona is listed in there of course and gives a good idea of who he was building for around then.

**Archie** · 06-19-2015, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

I was told the advantage of parallel bracing was for acoustic projection. But that can't be said of a L-5CES which has to use parallel bracing, and doesn't have many acoustic qualities at all. Seems most higher end acoustic archtops have X bracing and laminates mostly use parallel.

I cant agree with that statement.

1) For one the L5CES to my knowledge has a hybrid parallel pattern with is more heavily braced to support the pickups. I also think that to say it "doesn't have any acoustic properties" is way off the mark. If you want it to be an acoustically richer guitar, don't play one with two huge pickups on it. For what it is, I think the acoustic properties are excellent.
It could also depend on the ones you have played.

2) Most arch-tops with hum bucking pickups will probably be parrel but to claim that higher end arch-tops are X-braced because they are simply higher end, is not my thoughts. I would put it that parallel braced guitars sound better and are more focused in tone. Its a more common bracing style because it produces the better more constant results, it is also historically more in line with guitars at the time and subsequent ones that were essentially copied, those being early Gibson Jazz guitars.

Out of the two comments I made, I might be wrong on the last one

To the OP I'd jump at the chance to play or own a Bendetto with parallel bracing. In regards to price, who knows, scarcity can drive up price, depending on factors.

**mikeSF** · 06-19-2015, 06:59 PM

is it #24391?

**2bornot2bop** · 06-19-2015, 08:32 PM

A 90's Manhattan acquired by an esteemed forum member:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...manhattan.html

**rpguitar** · 06-19-2015, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

Seems most higher end acoustic archtops have X bracing and laminates mostly use parallel.

This is not a valid generalization when taking history into account. The original Gibson archtops of the 20s and early 30s were parallel braced. They are (or can be) wonderful, exemplary of the archtop species. Parallel braces then returned after a brief period of X bracing between 1935-38. Bottom line: a builder can leverage braces and carving for any desired acoustic properties. There is no definitive correlation between brace pattern and tone.

**floatingpickup** · 06-19-2015, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

This is not a valid generalization when taking history into account. The original Gibson archtops of the 20s and early 30s were parallel braced. They are (or can be) wonderful, exemplary of the archtop species. Parallel braces then returned after a brief period of X bracing between 1935-38. Bottom line: a builder can leverage braces and carving for any desired acoustic properties. There is no definitive correlation between brace pattern and tone.

I have a wonderful Fratello built by Bob around the same timeframe. I have played many of Bob's guitars and they were all fantastic. I am sure this one would be as well, regardless of the type of bracing. I would check the guitar out myself if I were you. The seller may not even be correct about the bracing. I think about how many times people on this forum say Mark Campellone uses x-bracing, which is wrong. He uses parallel bracing and his guitars are very warm and modern sounding. You have to play it yourself to know if you like it.
Keith

**fabiansey** · 06-20-2015, 02:49 AM

Thank you for your input- I will check the guitar out next week.
Mike: It has a different serial number.

One thing: The guitar has a bartolini pickup. Shop says the guitar came originally with it but they can t be 100 % sure. Any thoughts about the pickup?I have never played this one.

**oldane** · 06-20-2015, 03:07 AM

I think Bob had Bartolini make his pickups back then. Later in the 1990s it was Kent Armstrong.

**fws6** · 06-20-2015, 03:29 AM

I have a 1990 x-braced Manhattan built by Bob himself (I emailed several times with Bob about the guitar) . It sounds grand. No idea about the pickup though

Fabian I had sent you an email, did that arrive !?

Benedetto Manhattan 90 s with parallel bracing-image-jpg

Benedetto Manhattan 90 s with parallel bracing-image-jpg

**mikeSF** · 06-20-2015, 03:37 AM

Bartolini 5J floater was popular back then - i think Bob started using them around that time.
I had an '89 Manhattan which originally had a Gibson les paul mini floater ("PAT NO 2737842"), painted black, later replaced(possibly at Bob's shop) with the Bartolini. I also once had an earlier Fratello that came equipped originally with a blade pickup from Torres Engineering in CA.

Back to the bracing discussion, Bob made several variations on his winning formula, often by specific request of the buyer. Regardless of the inherent characteristics of X vs parallel bracing, you can rest assured Bob made the best instrument possible from the combination and it is likely to be a beautiful sounding instrument. If you have a particular sound in mind, you should really travel there and just play it.

I was asking about that serial # because it shows as a '91 parallel braced instrument made for Dan Moyer in case you could find him and ask some questions. oh, several more:

#24591 parallel bracing - Bill Banks
#24891 parallel bracing - Sal Selvappio (sp?)
#24991 parallel bracing - Tom Sudo

**fabiansey** · 06-20-2015, 04:04 AM

Thanks mike: Now I know that Tom Sudo was the first owner

**mikeSF** · 06-20-2015, 04:13 AM

cool. more notes from Bob's logbook:

"Manhattan Sunburst 1-23/32" at nut, parallel bracing, quilted maple, Tom Sudo/Karl Schloz(??)"

**2bornot2bop** · 06-20-2015, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by fabiansey

Thank you for your input- I will check the guitar out next week.
Mike: It has a different serial number.

One thing: The guitar has a bartolini pickup. Shop says the guitar came originally with it but they can t be 100 % sure. Any thoughts about the pickup?I have never played this one.

Pups are too subjective. What's great to one individual is so so to another. The 5J is still very much in use today and I found it a very complimentary match to my lone 16" arch top.

**floatingpickup** · 06-20-2015, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

I think Bob had Bartolini make his pickups back then. Later in the 1990s it was Kent Armstrong.

I have a pamphlet that Bob sent me in 1992, when I was first looking at his guitars. The specs say "Bartolini #5J pickup with volume control mounted on pickguard included in price". Very soon after that, he began using the Kent Armstrong S6. BTW, Bob's 1992 price list is attached to my pamhlet and a new Manhattan was $4,500.
Keith

**SierraTango** · 06-20-2015, 09:51 AM

My Cremona has a Bartolini floater and I am very happy with it.
She had her 25th birthday this month. Words alone cannot describe how much I love this instrument. As I have noted several times on this forum, I gig out with it, it's my working guitar, and it makes me feel good that she is doing what she was built to do. I sincerely hope the 91 Manhattan you are considering brings you as much joy if it turns out to be the guitar for you.

**Eagle2x** · 06-21-2015, 09:48 AM

Hope you enjoy it! I have a 16B with parallel bracing ( supports the pickup) which sounds great plugged in and acoustic for practicing and a Manhattan x braced (floating pickup)on order for more acoustic projection. Both are 7 string.

**Jabberwocky** · 06-21-2015, 12:40 PM

Bartolini 5J played through a Phil Jones Double Four Bass(!!) Amp BG-75. The tone is really very nice.

**mikeSF** · 06-21-2015, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Eagle2x

Hope you enjoy it! I have a 16B with parallel bracing ( supports the pickup) which sounds great plugged in and acoustic for practicing and a Manhattan x braced (floating pickup)on order for more acoustic projection. Both are 7 string.

i like you already.