Darker natural finishes?

**orri** · 07-16-2015, 07:37 AM

I've been craving a ES-175 (or ES-165) for some days now.

These following speculations and questions migh perhaps be really stupid.

I found a few photos on the Thomann website where they look a bit darker than "regular" natural finish:

I like this type of look more than the lighter shades. (I guess it is just due to the photography?)

The photos on the gibson website also look a bit different from other photos I find. They don't look as dark as the Thomann photos but they still look better than most other photos (probably be due to photography tricks/skills) and the wood grain is more vissible.
Most photos of natural ES-175s (and other archtops) look a bit more like if they would have simply been painted with beige paint (to exaggerate the difference).

Does anyone know if the new (2015) vintage natural es-175 look different?

Do you think I could have a professional refinish a guitar so that it would look similar to the first photo?

Could I buy black ES-165 (found a few on ebay and they seem cheaper than other finish types) and have the finish sanded off and then refinished with a dark natrual finish? (does the paint/finish perhaps go too deep into the wood for it to be possible)?

**barrymclark** · 07-16-2015, 08:04 AM

In my meager experience in working with guitar finishes, what you are seeing above can be a mixture of circumstances.

Outside of the photography itself, different woods can have a different hue. There is also what is referred as an antique natural or aged natural (something along those lines) where they tint the clear finish to give an darker or aged look.

As far as a refinish goes....

Done right, it isn't a big deal (as is with most things). Done wrong (like how I did it and a friend bailed me out), it can bring unwanted and maybe, lucky for me, pleasant results. What you may run into is you just don't know what is under that black. They may have chosen less than attractive cuts of wood for the solid finishes. It really is in what you are after.

**Dennis D** · 07-16-2015, 08:20 AM

My .02 worth:

1. Yes, absolutely, the appearance of natural finishes can vary by website. I went through this recently looking for a beige / tweed guitar case.
2. Natural finishes are usually priced higher than 'bursts - - for a reason. They require better ( blemish-free ) surfaces. Builders can hide imperfections with 'bursts, but can't hide imperfections as readily with a natural finish.
3. I would not consider re-finishing a burst to a natural shade -at all. Yes - there is only so much wood you can take off - -and the cost has to be prohibitive. Then - you'd still be risking liking the finished product. There are photo's to be found of refinishes - -some good, some really not so good, and I'm guessing all costly to do.

Bottom line, look for a natural finish for as close to your budget as you can find.

MHO, and good luck !

**floatingpickup** · 07-16-2015, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by orri

I've been craving a ES-175 (or ES-165) for some days now.

These following speculations and questions migh perhaps be really stupid.

I found a few photos on the Thomann website where they look a bit darker than "regular" natural finish:

I like this type of look more than the lighter shades. (I guess it is just due to the photography?)

The photos on the gibson website also look a bit different from other photos I find. They don't look as dark as the Thomann photos but they still look better than most other photos (probably be due to photography tricks/skills) and the wood grain is more vissible.
Most photos of natural ES-175s (and other archtops) look a bit more like if they would have simply been painted with beige paint (to exaggerate the difference).
Does anyone know if the new (2015) vintage natural es-175 look different?

Do you think I could have a professional refinish a guitar so that it would look similar to the first photo?

Could I buy black ES-165 (found a few on ebay and they seem cheaper than other finish types) and have the finish sanded off and then refinished with a dark natrual finish? (does the paint/finish perhaps go too deep into the wood for it to be possible)?

I have noticed that not all natural guitars age the same. I have an natural L5 from the mid-seventies which is quite dark. The spruce top became quite dark fairly early on in its life but the maple back and sides are not as dark as the top. I have had others that never became as dark as this one. I think spruce often has a tendency darken more than maple. Not sure why, but I guess wood varies a lot. I recommend finding the one you want rather than refinishing. A refin is less valuable than an original guitar (plus it might not turn out he way you want it).
Keith

Darker natural finishes?-image-jpg

**DRS** · 07-16-2015, 10:03 AM

You can add colour to the finish to give it just a bit of amber or do a seal coat with orange shellac.

**Jim Soloway** · 07-16-2015, 10:10 AM

It's become widely accepted to refer to any finish that shows the wood without an obvious color as a "natural finish" but in reality, most of them are actually tinted or colored in other ways. There is actually a significant difference between a true natural finish and a vintage tint.

**spiral** · 07-16-2015, 10:18 AM

Is the Thomann guitar vintage? The sun will darken wood—any wood. Spruce is very light when it is new (think about the color of a 2x4). Here is a "natural" L7 I owned, from the late 40's:

Some makers will tint the lacquer yellow to get a slightly aged look, but it doesn't look the same as aged wood, IMO. You could possibly have the top lightly stained a golden brown to match a vintage guitar. I don't know what that would do to the top as it naturally ages though ... would the stain lighten and the wood darken? Not sure.

You could also leave it in the direct sunlight for a year. We have a maple floor in our kitchen and within 2 years a light spot formed where we had a rug, and that was with only an hour or two of sunlight during the winter.

**orri** · 07-16-2015, 10:52 AM

thanks everyone for your input.

WOW, those two guitars, floatingpickup's L5 and spiral's L7 are really beautiful!

Is the Thomann guitar vintage?

No it is new from the factory in Memphis as far as I know. They might even have several in stock. Thomann is a huge webshop, I would guess the largest one specializing in music gear in Europe (at least top 5).

I could pay that price (~4000 EUR) for the right one, but in that price range I don't want to make a single compromise, even on the shade of the finish.
(I don't even need a new guitar, just the same old "owning guitar one too few" story).

**Danny W.** · 07-16-2015, 11:20 AM

Danny W.

**Bluedawg** · 07-16-2015, 12:00 PM

I have an '85 175 that I bought when it was brand new ...

Gibson started trying to make their guitars look a little older with the "antique" stains about that time so my 175 always had a little bit of an aged look to it ...

Now it really is a 30 year old guitar and the faux aging has now aged ... it seems to have just gotten darker over the years .... and the finished has checked all over on the side and back

Still looks and sounds great IMHO

**Patrick2** · 07-16-2015, 12:30 PM

IMO, Heritage really nailed it with their Antique Natural finish.

Here's an example of spruce (and maple) in *white wood*. This is one of my custom built Heritage Golden Eagles. This photo was taken during one of the HOC's PSP events at the factory while my guitar was still under construction. The photo is B&W (which is pretty cool) but you can get an idea of just how white spruce actually is. Another example is my last new build, the Super Golden Eagle, also under construction and unfinished.

**Patrick2** · 07-16-2015, 12:35 PM

Here's an example of natural aging. You can see the ghost of the original color of the spruce where the original art deco-y bridge base formerly sat. The bridge assy you see there was a temp just to hold the string up until I got my custom made bridge assy from Bill Gagnon.

**barrymclark** · 07-16-2015, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

IMO, Heritage really nailed it with their Antique Natural finish.

Here's an example of spruce (and maple) in *white wood*. This is one of my custom built Heritage Golden Eagles. This photo was taken during one of the HOC's PSP events at the factory while my guitar was still under construction. The photo is B&W (which is pretty cool) but you can get an idea of just how white spruce actually is. Another example is my last new build, the Super Golden Eagle, also under construction and unfinished.

Here's an example of Heritage's antiqued finish. It's a 2009 575 with an antique natural top.

**Patrick2** · 07-16-2015, 12:39 PM

Here's my '08 Super Eagle finished in Antique Natural;

**Jehu** · 07-16-2015, 04:23 PM

Even Benedetto has always added amber to his natural finish... He thinks it softens it a bit.

**oldane** · 07-16-2015, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Jehu

Even Benedetto has always added amber to his natural finish... He thinks it softens it a bit.

Not always. At least when he had his one man shop in the 1990s, one could order a natural without any amber tint, just clear laquer. I ordered my Fratello that way and when I recieved it, it was certainly as blonde as they'll ever come. The spruce top was almost white. However, I think he likes the amber tinted color better himself.