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After hearing 7 string archtops and even playing a D'aquisto seven string (original) I have come to a firm conclusion. It wont make some happy but its not meant to offend. We all have our own reality and opinions that aren't gospel but for anyone interested, this is my opinion of 7 string archtops.
I think the idea of a seven string guitar is appealing but in reality its (imo) terrible.
Aa far as I know guitars were designed to fit the broadest tonal range that would work. If having a lower 7th string was a good idea and produced a nice stable sound, don't you think it would have already happened and be the norm for all Archtops/guitars for the last hundred years?
Its not the norm because it doesn't work. I have never heard a seven string archtop that sounds good or adds anything to someones playing, other than the player thinking people will be impressed. It doesn't add anything to chord melody arrangements and for the most part the 7th string never really sounds in tune.
7 string guitar was mostly designed for Heavy Metal players on solid body guitars, who wanted that deep distorted sound to make their music more heavy. Jazz doesnt need to be that heavy and does not gain the same benefits. The only thing that seems to happen, is some Jazz players are impressed by the idea, whilst most listeners are not. I genuinely feel most 7 string players chose a 7 string to try and stand out.
So what your saying is 6 strings aren't enough? Lets hear any of you play some chord melody arrangements and if you're better than Joe pass and your playing is suffering from not having a 7th string, then go ahead, you would be worthy of it.
The reality is more often than not that 7 string players arrangements sound forced, they lack the detail that would be had from having 6 strings because now you have too many strings and not enough fingers. The increased scale length and huge neck makes it harder to play the 6 strings you originally had, so whats the point? Oh you'll have a lower sounding string, is that really a big deal?
Please note that whatever makes you happy do it. If having a 7 string makes you happy then do it. Just dont think you will be a better player because you have an extra string. The reality more often than not, is that you will be even worse at playing 6 strings you already had but you will have an extra string so low in tune, that it doesn't even sound good. The trade off or sacrifice is in no way worth it, otherwise we'd all do it.
Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh or (moody) I have never had a chance to express my opinions on 7 strings before and this seems like a good opportunity, after reading a couple of recent threads about 7 strings.
Again everything I said here, is just my opinion. If you can prove me wrong or change my opinion then kudos to you, I'm all ears.
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08-13-2015 09:08 AM
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While I agree that 6 stings are plenty for everyone, 7 string players just want more options and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If you can make it work why not? Being ably to play in the bass register while playing chordal accompaniment is fun. Sure 6 strings are totally enough, but with 7 strings getting more affordable and accessible on the market why not try it and risk having fun? Maybe we do it because we all suffer from pianist envy. Who really needs more than one archtop anyways if you wanted to get down to it.
Most importantly, George Van Eps doesn't do anything for you?
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Archtop,
I'm not trying to start an argument but ahat about those players who make it work? Van Eps, Bucky, John Pizzarelli, Eschte, Bruno, Alden are all players and musicians of the highest of high caliber and seem to use the 7th string with a purpose rather than as a flavor.
I think you have many sound arguments but I would counter 7 isn't the norm simply because it isnt what anyone starts on. Again, not trying to argue, as I totally understand your opinion.
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I play a 7. I play it for its musicality. I reach the notes in one position that I'd need to change position for. I don't think about it, it's just a span of notes I use within a span of frets. Tiny Grimes played a 4 string tenor, he felt he could do all he needed and his technique was well wedded with his instrument; that's a musician. He felt 6 strings were unnecessary. His playing was just fine.
As a luthier, I make tools for musicians. As a player, I use a tool that allows me to convey art. 7 strings allow me to do that. I have better access to my ideas, have more options when putting a triad over a bass note, have more notes per position. No gimmick. Simple utilitarian necessity for me.
But please continue debating and opining. I'll be playing music and speculation has no use for me at this point.
DavidLast edited by TH; 08-15-2015 at 09:25 AM.
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ATH... Guess you wouldn't want a Gibson Style U
Personally, I think they are kind of cool.
Not quite as elegant as a nice blonde d'Angelico, and at 21" bout it is even bigger than 2b's guitars... But it's got the low notes...
But heck... I like the deep resonant sound of a good Weissenborn too.
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Archie,
I use my 7 string for gigs where I am an accompianist without a bass player. It is a very useful tool. My teacher, Allen Hanlon ( a close friend of George Van Eps) played one. A 7 string archtop is like a Selmer guitar, they are difficult to play and require a pretty good guitarist to sound good.
I have heard some sustandard jazz guitarists make a 7 string archtop sound quite muddy, but in the right hands ( like my friend Howard Alden) they sound wonderful.
Van Eps, Bucky, Ron Eschte, Howard Alden, Kenny Poole, John Pizzarelli, Early Jimmy Bruno, Allen Hanlon all are proof positive that you are simply wrong.
I would suggest that since a 7 string is probably not right for you, that you not play one.
The 7 string archtop predates the 7 string solidbody and uses acdifferent tuning. The rockers use a low B, we jazzers use a low A.
Cheers,
Marc
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An interesting thing to me is this is just a repeat of history ...
People have been adding strings to the guitar and it's stringed predecessors for centuries
Some of the old Lutes got really crazy with up to 24 strings, but the old friction based tuning systems and gut strings were difficult to manage .... which is one of the reasons the guitar settled to 6 strings IIRC
The good thing is that with modern tuners and modern strings you can add the extra strings without the tunning issues they had 2 or 3 hundred years ago
Every once and a while I toy with getting one of the less expensive 7 strings just to experiment worth
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Last edited by jzucker; 08-13-2015 at 11:24 AM.
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Charlie Hunter, not really an archtop player but is a jazz player who goes back and forth between eight and seven strings and sounds great. I have a hard time imagining his playing would suffer if he played a regular 6-stringer.
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here's another one
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The depth of sound the 7th string brings cannot be overstated. Having sat within an arms length of Bucky, Howard Alden, and Steve Herberman a few months ago at a house show, really showed me why a seven string guitar works so well for jazz.
I also just want to add that the 7 string guitar was not invented for metal, and it wasn't until bands like Korn in the 90s took off did ERGs take a grip on most metal musicians. George was doing it for decades before the metal guys.
We know you are one of the most opinionated individuals in this community, but I really feel like you couldn't be more wrong.
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First, listening to Steve Herberman play that 7 is heavenly to me. He really takes the spirit of Van Eps in his own magnificent direction. I also love Howard Alden's 7 playing and several others (the Pizzarelli's obviously, Eschete, Bruno, etc).
None of them sound terrible nor is there anything about their arrangements that "does not work". Having more range on an instrument to fit a particular sonic space is a need that has been addressed in the natural evolution of many modern instruments including the piano, the violin & bowed family, saxophones (which were invented only for heavy metal i think, but not sure), etc.
You are suggesting that someone would chose to play a 7-string because their playing has maxed out that which can be done on a 6? really? You said something about only being worthy if you can outplay Joe Pass? I am paraphrasing but is that what you said?? Geez the arrogance of that Pat Metheny character trying to take on a 42-string guitar which suggests he thinks he's 7 times better (6x7=42) than Joe. Oy!
Honestly, I switched some years ago and have no need to look back nor justify my playing to someone who claims it is a "terrible" idea. Clearly you are not a candidate for one but some of your supporting arguments are simply absurd. Don't forget that music is art and to transcend "convention" is a necessary component to it's evolution.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Sorry i have to reply in bulk and I'm about to go out ad run my free music workshop at the local super market in about 10 mins.
Um didn't feel that the 7th string really added anything to what is already a great arrangement. If anything he uses the 7th string either open or with extreme caution when fretting and he even makes a mistake at 1:05 and the note sounded odd.
Great arrangement, didn't convince me.
When he went in tot he chord melody the bass sting just sounded flabby and farty like they al seem to. Id much rather have a real bass if I had to.
And think how much better the arrangement could of been and how much better his improvisation may have been if he didn't have to constantly try to think and include the extra string?
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Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
you are missing the point by thinking he (or any 7 string player) is somehow trying to work in the extra string. It is an extension of the range of the guitar and also opens up some wide voicing options higher up the neck (like voicing a low G at the 10th fret while grabbing high voices such as a high G at the 15th fret. Regardless, the subtle application in this example of Steve's playing is exactly what the extra 7 notes are there for, whether you can appreciate it or not.
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George Van Eps is the father of modern 7-string as it is commonly used in jazz.
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More
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And finally with his self-chosen successor, Howard alden with both of them playing 7-strings.
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I can see your point about inversions and the greater interest you can get but I still would say, well why not have a 10 string then? At what point is it a plus, over the way you have to play, which is restrictive to some decree, how good will it sound for all this extra effort? Originally Posted by mikeSF
Is the reward enough?
From that arrangement, which is beautiful, it would be nice to hear it exactly the same way, without the 7th string for a better comparison. Although that still wouldn't be perfect but you get what I mean.
And although you say I miss the point about working the string in, well you obviously have to, because its there ad if you dont, why bother having it. Again that idea of forced 7 string arranging has be be noted because they are arranging for a seven string guitar. I dont think its a simple as having it and saying "oh I can just play it here instead" these are deliberate arrangements for 7 strings and the point of having one is that you include it.Last edited by Archie; 08-13-2015 at 04:21 PM.
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Mike aI agree, not all my thoughts/points are going to be accurate and i caveated everything I said. If I was just talking loosely, its because after watching 7 string playing for the last couple of years, these are the instant thoughts that come into my head. Originally Posted by mikeSF
I agree you dont have to max out the 6 string to play the 7 but on the flip side of that why bother adding overly complicated arrangements to a guitar because you have an extra string that i dont think sounds very good. You might as well get the most out of the 6 original strings like Joe did. That was kinda my point and from my position which you now know, it not so absurd ;-)Last edited by Archie; 08-13-2015 at 04:58 PM.
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Hi Marc, Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I would have dearly loved to have mastered a 7 string guitar ,but small hands don't work well with one.
( Old dogs and new tricks syndrome )
I'm impressed also that Howard is your friend. I attended a gig here in the Uk some years ago and
was very taken with his playing,( no slouch on a 6 string either ! ) I actually met George
Van Eps here on a tour, I guess when he was approaching his 80's . An absolute gent, when he shook
hands one could detect his great strength.His large hands reminded me of Tal Farlow's. It was amusing to watch young guys at the gig open mouthed in disbelief at his deft, articulate playing with consummate ease,
obviously never having seen or even heard a 7 string Archtop before.
He was most certainly the Master of the 7 string , I believe he asked Epiphone to make one before he moved
on to the Gretsch ? I have the album "Hand Crafted Swing" featuring GVE and Howard, his worthy successor.
If you have another video showing your 7 string played in a small group situation i'm sure many here would
be keen to see & hear it ?
Best, Alan
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Not a fan of 7 strings or any other configuration of strings on a guitar other than 6, I don't like 5 6 7 and eight string basses either, players like Van Epps, Pizzarelli, Alden etc just don't float my boat.
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Personally, I'm a better player on a 7 string than I am on a 6 string, I'll never be a good player, I just enjoy playing. The main thing I like about the 7 string is not having to move positions as much as I did on a 6 string. I don't play chord melody, in fact, I don't even play Jazz Standards anymore (unless I'm paid).
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This sounds awful imo. Originally Posted by jzucker
You know what it is, i've figured it out.
The extra bass note is not needed. It in no way improves an arrangement all it does is add more bass, that doesnt sound very pleasing (to my ears) and makes the guitar sound way too bottom heavy, shifting the prominence of the middle frequencies that we love to hear and clouding them out. I also noticed that again, his new string wasn't either in perfect tune or intimating properly.
The voicings used to include the bass string are to wide and the sound becomes too open and loses meaning and the higher strings lose their importance, especially the mids, they just seem to be stranded on their own.
You can still see in every clip I have watched, the player trying so hard to add it. Ok so you've added a bass line, the most boring bass line possible because its still not possible to play the harmonies and melodies and add the bass string and to process all that information without dumbing it all down.
A pianist who has up to 10 notes, wouldn't really go for voicing or inversions where the bass is so much lower than the middle voice, it would sound odd and it sounds even more odd on the guitar.
The more I'm watching, the less I'm sold. The two videos you posted Jack, and I thank you for doing so just show me that a guitarist is now trying to take on half the job of a basset and a full guitarist at the same time the whole things suffers for it. The bass lines implemented with this new found freedom are dull. A bass player in their first year, would play these bass lines (imo). I dont want to hear a level 1 bass player and a level 9 guitarist playing together especially when the tonal over all is too dark and muddy in the bass. I agree his string sounds clear but the over all tone is gassy and too heavy and the voices are too far apart
I think the guitars normal register works so well because its not too heavy and not too bright, adding more bass to it, pushes the mids off kilt and I think makes the guitar as a whole suffers for it
imoLast edited by Archie; 08-13-2015 at 05:02 PM.
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And to provide some George Van Eps contrast- I believe this is him on 6 string with a plectrum (despite the picture):
Doesn't add anything to the discussion of pros and cons of 7 strings but I liked the performance.
As far as 7 string goes, first I think you have to play it a while to get it- just picking one up and giving it a try is not going to work. Second, it only gives you five more notes that a 6 string. What it does do is give you many more voicings farther up the neck. Watch a bunch of Bucky Pizzarelli videos to see how to leverage that.Last edited by Cunamara; 08-14-2015 at 05:20 PM.
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