Microphones for jazz guitar recording?

**Jim Soloway** · 09-07-2015, 05:06 PM

I find my self looking at the recording process again. The only mic I own is an AT 2021 and I feel like there are probably a lot of mics out there that are better suited for the job. any suggestions?

**henryrobinett** · 09-07-2015, 05:41 PM

That's an open ended question. What price range?

**neatomic** · 09-07-2015, 05:41 PM

at 2021 is still a solid condenser mic…in live applications the shure 57 is still used….lately the trend is back to ribbon mics…they give a nice warm quality to a guitar amp tone…the royer 121 is the hot mic now…pricey tho…cascade fatheads are also very popular guitar ribbon mics….and more affordable

and of course you can never go wrong with a large diaghram neumann..also $$$$

here's a pretty good article i just found..albeit from 2009

18 Cab Mics You Should Meet

cheers

**2bornot2bop** · 09-07-2015, 06:00 PM

An AT4081 ribbon mic and a Heil PR20-UT cartioid mic

**Jim Soloway** · 09-07-2015, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

That's an open ended question. What price range?

Hi Henry. I kept it open ended because I wanted to hear people's experiences with what they have rather than trying to push them into a suggestion based on my wallet. But it looks like I can pick up a decent used Sennheiser MD421 II for $250 Canadian (about $200 US) so I guess that's my budget.

**Max405** · 09-07-2015, 07:50 PM

Jim, I use a blue bluebird. It's a great mic. The price is $299.
i like this mic because it has a good range and then all background noise is non-existent. It's a very clean mic. It works very well on a wide variety of sources. It's cool looking too.

**skykomishone** · 09-07-2015, 11:19 PM

I like a matched pair of AT4051a's, one pointed at the neck/body join and one below the bridge, and the Rode NTK tube mike in the middle, all at a distance of 3 or more feet, depending on the room, for acoustic archtop.

**neatomic** · 09-07-2015, 11:32 PM

yes. well it all depends on your...needs

acoustic ?...amped sound ?…etc…mic'ing is a lost artform…i was fortunate to see some of the last nyc studio guys…@ nola, greene street…they had their old ways..and there's more since besides!!!!...

an understanding of what the mic can do is as important as the mic itself…everything depends on application…silly of me to recommend a fine ribbon mic if you need a usb mic to plug into computer..(not that there's anything wrong with it)

too many variables nowadays for a blanket recommendation

cheers

**KirkP** · 09-07-2015, 11:33 PM

A fairly frugal choice is the CAD M179 ($150US). Its variable pattern, attenuator, 100Hz HP filter, and shock mount make it pretty versatile. I've had some good results with it.
http://www.cadaudio.com/M179.php

I've also found the CAD GXL1200 useful ($50US). Record to two of them in different positions, then blend and/or pan them in the mix. It's similar to your AT 2021 though.
http://cadaudio.com/GXL1200.php

I bought both of these mics to experiment with amateur demo recording and never felt a need to upgrade.

**konstantine** · 09-08-2015, 06:20 AM

I really like the Sennheiser e906 on guitar cabs for clean sounds, the price is also good!

Other than that I like Ribbon mics but the usual cheap ones are not so good, unless you use them two mics on a cab and use the ribbon just for the fatness, so something like a Fathead II would work. A Beyer M160 is really nice though but more expensive and a Royer 121 is amazing but very expensive!

**feet** · 09-08-2015, 11:12 AM

old sennheiser md 409 u3, sm 57 and fathead iis on guitar cabinets, sm 81 on acoustics. i love using two mics on a cab, especially for a more realistic, in the room type sound, but it does take up a lot of space in the mix and the phase issues can be annoying. so one mic for more dense mixes and two mics for demos, sparse songs or a more "live" feel.

i wend with the mics i did because i didn't have a lot of money to throw around at the time, and i needed some "right answers"- classic workhorses that i knew were capable of delivering quality, usable sounds. i know if the sounds don't work, its my fault and not the mic.

while it probably doesn't strike you as much, there isn't a reason why you shouldn't get serviceable tones from the mic you already have. of course, your room and recording signal chain come in to play and mean as much, if not more, depending on what you're trying to do.

that 421 wouldn't be a horrible idea, but consider the rest of your gear and what you're trying to record. dynamic mics need more gain and unless you have a half decent preamp (or something like a cloudlifter to fluff it up) you aren't going to get enough clean gain to drive the mic properly. if you are close micing a cabinet with a cardioid pattern mic and have a decent bit of volume going, you may be able to overcome some of the limitations of your room or gear. the further away the mic gets from the source, the more of an issue it'll become.

**spiral** · 09-08-2015, 11:45 AM

Recording what? Amp? Acoustic guitar? Flattop? Archtop? Vocals? Drums?

**Jim Soloway** · 09-08-2015, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by spiral

Recording what? Amp? Acoustic guitar? Flattop? Archtop? Vocals? Drums?

Sorry. The only thing I ever record is a guitar through an amplifier. It can be either my archtop or my plank. On the other hand, I pulled out my modeler last night for the first time in quite a while and it was ridiculous how easy it was to get a decent sound. Maybe I'll just go back to recording with that.

**Max405** · 09-08-2015, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I find my self looking at the recording process again. The only mic I own is an AT 2021 and I feel like there are probably a lot of mics out there that are better suited for the job. any suggestions?

Jim, I thought about this for a little bit.
I still do some studio work (mostly demos for up and coming artists and a few well known singers) for a close friend who is a Producer/Engineer. While I am not able to take clips with me, I have heard literally 100's of them. The best sound I've heard is when Multiple small condenser mics are used when I play acoustic or acoustic archtop. The premise is create a multi-dimensional sound that is true stereo and true surround sound. Usually 4 Mics arranged the following way..
Lower bout Treble side
Lower bout Bass side
Pointed at the 17th fret
Pointed at the center sound hole.

This creates an amazingly flexible mixture that when heard with headphones is actually heavenly.

To do this yourself is not as expensive as it seems. You can buy an 8 channel mixer with a USB out for $100. You can buy pairs of Rode Condenser mics for under $200 (Less than $400 total) and then cobble together stands for another $100.

If you want the best sound, multiple mics is the way to go.

Joe D.

PS, Even if you are only recording through an amp, you can get an extra dimension of sound if you mic the Archtop. Even if you only average 20% of it into 100% of the amp signal, it sounds better.

**spiral** · 09-08-2015, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Sorry. The only thing I ever record is a guitar through an amplifier. It can be either my archtop or my plank. On the other hand, I pulled out my modeler last night for the first time in quite a while and it was ridiculous how easy it was to get a decent sound. Maybe I'll just go back to recording with that.

Recording an amp can be done with a wide range of mics. For easy and cheap, an SM57 has the right frequency range and rolloff suited to amps. Your AT2021 should work fine on the amp too, you just may have to pull it back a bit, and record the seam of the dustcap, or slightly off center, not straight on (where you will pick up too much noise from the amp). Room and placement have more to say about sound quality assuming the mic is of good quality. Play around with it, then duct tape the stand to the floor and never think about it again.

I've used many different mics on my amp with great success (LDC tube mics, LDC SS mics, some ribbons, SDC's) and recently started using a pair of Shure KSM141 (small diaphragm condensers) set to omni, about 5" off the grill, for recording 2 amps in stereo. TBH, I've done lots of different tests with different mics and listening back, it didn't matter that much. The Shures in omni are nice because I can have them pretty close to not get too much of the room, and don't get bass overload like a cardioid mic would. For an archtop that is putting out a lot of bass, in a room that isn't treated for recording, I wouldn't recommend a ribbon.

I'd say use what you got. If you are having problems, post examples. If you are really feeling the burn to buy, get a nice LDC (Oktava MK105 aka. EHC-5, Studio Projects CS5), or an SM57. All are $250 or less and would be versatile for recording other things.

The advantage of getting a second mic is being able to record acoustically in stereo or putting the AT2021 on the body of any hollow guitar, blending with the amp mic, and getting a nice acoustic sound, even on laminates. You don't need matched mics to record acoustic guitar, in fact, sometimes you want them to be different to suit the different parts of the body—but that's a whole other topic.

**DanTheMan** · 09-08-2015, 01:21 PM

Guys, I am also looking for a selection of microphones for recording acoustic archtops and other guitar. Usefull thread. Could you comment on these 3 options of different cost?

1- One Rode NT5 matched pair ,small cardioid condensers for XY recording (about $500 Canadian for a pair)

2- Two Rode NT2A with multiple pattern (cardioid, figure 8, Omni, 10 db pad) with large diaphragm about $425 Canadian each + one match pair of NT5

3- Two Rode NT2A + match pair of NT5 + one (or better two...) KSM141 $500 Canadian each (omnidirectional or cardioid)

I think that with the third option you could try just any stereo recording and gets good result. Could you get results as good and spending less $$$$ ??

Thank you,

Daniel

**feet** · 09-08-2015, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by DanTheMan

Could you get results as good and spending less $$$$ ??

sure. sm 81s have worked for decades now, neumann ksm184s are sort of standard acoustic mics these days as well, (modded) oktava mk12s are popular as cheaper mics.

if you're new, and you're using less than optimal equipment in a sub optimal space, then i'd stick to just one mic. much easier, and you save time, money and headaches. like anything else, you'd probably be best served getting a decent mic and a decent preamp over several mediocre mics and preamps*. and the less you have to deal with stands and mics and phasing issues the better, especially if you are attempting to play and record at the same time all by yourself.

i'd prefer to have a few solid, cheaper mics to cover specific needs than a swiss army knife type mic, unless i had a lot of cash to invest in a mic or two.

the immutable law of recording electric guitar- 57 on the grill.

*- not personally familiar with the mics you listed, just speaking in general

**henryrobinett** · 09-08-2015, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Hi Henry. I kept it open ended because I wanted to hear people's experiences with what they have rather than trying to push them into a suggestion based on my wallet. But it looks like I can pick up a decent used Sennheiser MD421 II for $250 Canadian (about $200 US) so I guess that's my budget.

Ok. I didn't look. Did you say what you want the mic for? Recording or live? 421 works for live but it would not be my choice for recording. I use Peluso mics. They're a budget Neumann style. Their 2247 LE is remarkable but quite pricey, though quite cheap in comparison to a Neumann U-47. Not the same quality either. Peluso has a CEMC6 pencil that I really love. Much more reasonable. I also love the AT-4050 which is a great all around utility mic. They don't make that one any more, I don't think. It's along the same line as the 414. The 4021 is a more recent budget version I think. I'm not as current since I have my 21 mics for my studio work. Not shopping any longer!

**Petimar** · 09-09-2015, 01:28 AM

One of the most used mics by top engineers for recording amps is the Royer R121. It's my fav. For recording acoustic archtop there is nothing like an RCA44BX.

Actually for recording about anything there is nothing like a 44BX!

**Chimera1to1** · 09-09-2015, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by DanTheMan

Guys, I am also looking for a selection of microphones for recording acoustic archtops and other guitar. Usefull thread. Could you comment on these 3 options of different cost?

1- One Rode NT5 matched pair ,small cardioid condensers for XY recording (about $500 Canadian for a pair)

2- Two Rode NT2A with multiple pattern (cardioid, figure 8, Omni, 10 db pad) with large diaphragm about $425 Canadian each + one match pair of NT5

3- Two Rode NT2A + match pair of NT5 + one (or better two...) KSM141 $500 Canadian each (omnidirectional or cardioid)

I think that with the third option you could try just any stereo recording and gets good result. Could you get results as good and spending less $$$$ ??

Thank you,

Daniel

Have you looked at the Rode NT55 mp? They come with omni and cardioid caps.

**VitalSigns** · 09-20-2015, 11:09 AM

+1 for the Royer R-121.

I've recently finished a recording project. I tried all the mics I had on the guitar cab - Royer R-121; RE-20;
Neumann TLM-103 and an SE-3 condenser. The Royer sounds just like you hear coming out of the speaker.
I've had the ribbon for ten years - I see that the current price is the cost of the other mics put together.
Good investment. I found that the best sound I got with an EV cab was about 8" in front midway between the centre and edge.

**barrymclark** · 09-20-2015, 12:03 PM

At some point, I'll get mic's again. When I do, AT2020 (room) and SM57 (close) it will be.

**JazzNote** · 09-20-2015, 12:54 PM

Hi Jim,

In the process of looking for a ideal mic i realized that using a good preamp is as important as the mic itself. So i bought a Millennia HV-3C which sounds very neutral with smooth highs. It was expensive, but is worth every penny as it makes a huge difference.

My last home made recordings i did with a shure SM81 (probably im the only person on the planet to do this ;-)) in front of the stealth cabinet, aiming at the center of the speaker to get a clearer sound. In addition to that i had a Schoeps KM24 in front of the guitar about 10-15cm away from the top in between tailpiece and lower f-hole. The sound of the two mics mixed together was clear, warm and transparent, it didn't need any equalization and i thought it to be absolutely terrific. The sm81 itself sounded good, but the extra highs from the schoeps with the acoustic touch gave the mix an unexpected smooth brilliance.

I also own a Sennheiser MD441-U and a Sennheiser 541 Black Fire which sound both great but are not 100% reliable. I really do like their sound a lot (actually even more than the sm81) but they sometimes mess up the recordings with unwanted noises (maybe i should send them for repair).

I hate the sure sm57, tried mixing it with others but never thought anything in its sound to be desirable

At my last studio session the engineer used a Royer R-122 ribbon mic which i liked very much too, but ribbon mics have the disadvantage to record more room sound than desirable. Also they are expensive and subject to "easy damage" because of the ribbons fragile construction.