Western Swing

[EarthGoat]

Would Western Swing require some different gear compared to traditional jazz? I am thinking about maybe thinner, round wound strings instead of the flat wound 13's? Different guitars maybe?

All of you who regularly perform W.S. What is your setup and what gear do you use?

[campusfive]

It would be the exact same gear as somebody playing pre-bebop jazz, or at least pre-1950 jazz.

Traditionally, you're looking for a single-coil pickup, perhaps a Charlie Christian pickup, or a DeArmond, etc. And you're probably looking at a pre-tweed Octal-tube based amp, or at least an early tweed style amp. Since flats didn't really come into play until the mid 1950's (as told to me by studio legend Bob Bain - he said he was turned on to them in the 50's by this kid from Chicago, George Barnes - GEORGE BARNES!!!!), go with round wound. No need to go lighter on the gauge, because what bends they were doing on "spanish neck" guitar weren't more than a half-step.

When I've guested with the Lucky Stars (my pick for the very best current Western Swing Band anywhere), I've used a '37 ES-150 and a '39 EH-185 - same amp as Junior Barnard. Their guitar player uses a CC-equipped 150 or a P90-equipped one into something octal-based, or whatever tweed-ish fender is around (Blues Junior, etc.). Since that same guitar actually spends more time subbing on the steel chair than playing guitar, their regular guitar sub, who plays tenor guitar, uses a 50's P90-equipped ES-150 or ES-125 into a modern Fender Excelsior. That amp can't really hack it though.

Whit Smith uses a DeArmond Guitar Mic on an L-5 into an EH-150, or at least he used to play the 150 on the road. Now he's using a modified Tremolux. 150's are pretty low power, and I know he worked with a tech to modify the Tremolux to get it to sound more like an older octal-based EH-series amp, but just, louder.

My favorite bargain in the single coil/octal tube area is a 50's Epiphone Century guitar (with the pickups with the bakelite-looking mounting) into an 50's Valco or a 50's Gibson GA-25 or GA-30 (but the ones with field coil speakers). That gets use really close to a CC/EH-150 or EH-185 sound but thousands of dollars cheaper.

Avoid the gear of the 60's and later: humbuckers, flatwounds, solid state, etc. The rest is just playing pre-bop jazz (and even proto-bop jazz) with a twangy accent.

[campusfive]

Here's an example of the Lucky Stars from their most recent album:

But if the cute, cartoon music video isn't your kind of thing, here's a playlist of their last album:

[Stringswinger]

Eldon Shamblin (who played with Bob Wills) started with a Super 400 but switched in the 1950's to a Stratocaster, which he played for the rest of his life.

Jimmie Rivers (the best Western Swing guitarist that you have probably never heard of) played a Gibson double neck SG.

Most guitarists think (wrongly) that the Telecaster and Stratocaster were created for Rock, blues and Country players. The fact is that these two iconic guitars were created for the Western Swing genre. And they were shipped with flatwounds.

Like all things guitar related, there is no right or wrong answer. A guitarist must choose gear that sounds right and feels right to him/her (and which inspires one's playing).

You can do a 40's rig as Whit Smith does if you like. Be advised that 1940's amps are less reliable than the amps that came later. Or you can go 50's. I use an American Series 52 reissue Tele (with flats) into one of my tube amps (I have a couple of vintage Fender tube amps, one from the 60's and one from the early 70's) when I play Western Swing and it sounds great. I have an archtop from the 30's and two archtops from the 40's and a bunch of Dearmond pickups. I prefer to use them on less rowdy jazz gigs.

As always with gear, YMMV

Cheers,

Marc
www.hotclubpacific.com

[wintermoon]

"Eldon Shamblin (who played with Bob Wills) started with a Super 400 but switched in the 1950's to a Stratocaster, which he played for the rest of his life."

actually it was a prewar ES-150 through an EH-185, the Super 400 came in about '47 IIRC

[campusfive]

Marc isn't wrong about going the solid body route, but I tend to like my Western stuff on the 30's-40's end of the spectrum, so I prefer going the older way. If you're going to go solid, Tele or perhaps faux-Bigsby (check out T.K. Smith by the way), definitely use some hefty flats.

And yeah, Jimmie Rivers is bad ass.

[Stringswinger]

Then there is Scotty Anderson, another great Western swing guy that most have never heard of. Like me, Scotty plays a Tele with a Humbucker in the neck position.

[neatomic]

both tavo at nocturne and david barnes at vintage47 are making modern versions of octal amps….if that junior barnard tone is what you are after…

if you like the later jimmy bryant tone, then its all fender...roy latham used a jazzmaster..he was like texas swing johnny smith


the great early west coast instrument producers -leo fender, paul bigsby and roy crooks (standel) were all from pedal/lap steel swing crowd…even rickenbacker was that…later semie m…and even carvin with their great ap-6 pickup


you want new classic styled guitar, see tk smith or terry at tnm..2 artists

cheers

ps- tip-40's west coast jump man saunders king..and cc afficiando.. swore by felt picks!

[reventlov]

I'd say you should go with whatever guitar, strings and amp you feel comfortable with, that produces a sound you like. I play a lot of western swing; I use three different guitars and just choose whatever one I feel like playing at the time. They are: Gretsch Double Anniversary with Hilotron pickups (single coil), Gretsch 5122 with TV Jones pickups (hum buckers) and a Mexican Fender Telecaster. They all make good sounds which satisfy my ear. The Gretsches are both strung with gauges 11-48, and the Fender with 10-42; my amp of choice is a Vox AC30 although I sometimes use a Roland Cube 40. The Vox is MUCH better, but the Roland is much lighter and at my age, that's an issue. I never use flat wound strings, they just don't feel right to me.

The Double Anniversary probably produces the most 'authentic' sound but this is 2015 not 1935 so as far as I'm concerned, the best sound for me is what sounds good to my ear, not what some great player of the past sounded like; it's a living, growing art form not a museum piece. What sounds best to me usually is the 5122 - it sounds like this -
https://app.box.com/s/i58z2tsopdn98t7np7j5

[MarkRhodes]

Let's hear some of that Junior Barnard tone.....

Here we hear Junior play Charlie Christian's "A Smooth One."

[barrymclark]

OOH! Western Swing. Good stuff. Check out Alex Farran's take on Jimmy Bryant's Deep Water

[MarkRhodes]

I really enjoyed the record Willie Nelson made with Asleep at the Wheel a few years back ("Willie and the Wheel.")

This is the opening song ("Hesitation Blues") and a nice video montage of the ensuing tour.

[SierraTango]

Once you get all those hot Western Swing licks down on the 6 string, give one of these a go. Here's a MCI D-10 with 9x5. The great Buddy Emmons played a MCI very similar to this one. RIP to a true legend. My good friend Larry Petree, a super Bakersfield steeler (who once owned a Bigsby triple neck) set this one up with his copedent on the back neck, it's A6maj7 with the "Hank Thompson" pedal.
Oh yes-and please check out Bruce Forman's Cow Bop-pretty sure he's using a L-5 in that band.

[MarkRhodes]

OOH! Western Swing. Good stuff. Check out Alex Farran's take on Jimmy Bryant's Deep Water

Good stuff! Thanks.

[Stringswinger]

Bruce Forman is a friend. He is using his Norlin era L-5 with Cowbop.

[neatomic]

jimmie n jim

cheers

[gtrplrfla]

Jimmy Bryant is often overlooked , both as a soloist and with his recordings with steel guitarist, Speedy West.

[Headshot]

I love Western Swing...been a fan of Asleep at the Wheel for years...I guess you can say this is the original redneck jazz.

[SierraTango]

I love Western Swing...been a fan of Asleep at the Wheel for years...I guess you can say this is the original redneck jazz.

I was a senior in High School and my buddy Bob November, later founder of McKinzie River Music in Eugene, OR (RIP Bob), used to sneak into the Palomino Club on Lankershim in North Hollywood. I'll never forget hearing Asleep at the Wheel fresh outta Paw Paw, WVA with the original lineup-Ray Benson on lead, Lucky Oceans on steel, Floyd Domino on Piano, Chris O'Connell on rhythm guitar and vocal. They were all decked out in Nudie suits, but the extra, extra treat in a tux was none other than Johnny Gimble sitting in on fiddle and electric mandolin. What a fantastic night of Western Swing!

I just checked my calendar and I see that Cow Bop is performing at Viva Cantina in Burbank 9/18. I urge anyone within horseback distance to saddle up and get there. Out of this world if you dig Western Swing, and even if you don't-Mr. Forman will be tearin' it up on his L-5 I'm sure!!

[Bluedawg]

I never really realized that country and western really are two different types of music until I moved to Arizona ...

I grew up in Tennessee so country music was all around me


They take their cowboy music and western swing seriously out here in the west

Good stuff ... I'd like to get into it even more ..


I play bass in a swing band and one of our tunes is Hay Burner by Count Basie .... maybe it's not really Western Swing, but still fun with a western flavor

[Stringswinger]

S/T Wrote: "I'll never forget hearing Asleep at the Wheel fresh outta Paw Paw, WVA with the original lineup-Ray Benson on lead, Lucky Oceans on steel, Floyd Domino on Piano, Chris O'Connell on rhythm guitar and vocal."

I will be playing Western Swing guitar as part of the Ginny Mitchell Trio opening for Chris O'Connell and her band next month.

Don Quixote's International Music Hall~ Come Have Dinner &A Show

[MarkRhodes]

I love Western Swing...been a fan of Asleep at the Wheel for years...I guess you can say this is the original redneck jazz.

I first heard this music in two places. One was in the home of my uncle Tommy. He had a lot of of 78 records and the only ones I remember were sides by Bob Wills. The other was the home of a childhood friend whose father loved music and had some old records, including sides by Django, Homer & Jethro, and some swing things that made me smile but I don't recall the names of them.

[MarkRhodes]

I play bass in a swing band and one of our tunes is Hay Burner by Count Basie .... maybe it's not really Western Swing, but still fun with a western flavor

I like that tune too.

[Longways to Go]

Thanks Guys!

This has been a super great thread to listen through in my painting studio this afternoon.

As a jazz player & lifelong student, I'm more personally involved in the Jim Hall & Joe Pass styles, but I love & respect Western Swing too.

I was first introduced to the genre living in western Kansas in 2008 & stumbled across this gem of a show on HPPR public radio out of Dodge City. Much cooler than I ever would have expected! Pretty sure it's the real deal. Swing on



Western Swing & Other Things | HPPR

[neatomic]

the great roy lanham

& this one shared by deke dickerson!

some nice wood!

cheers