Gibson ES 175 setup

[marceff]

Hi, I own a ES 175 Ebony with bigsbay which I bought new for a very good price (store was quitting business). Playing up to position 1 2 3 (top of the neck) it is quite buzzy, as well as when I play in 10 11 12 13 and down positions. So I tried changing with thicker strings (Addario Chrome 12) but no improvement.

I also have the chance to play a 1963 Es 175 which doesn't have any buzzy sound. I do not know what strings are mounted on it but they seem more strained, despite being thinner then mine. The sound is clean and clear in all positions, while my ES 175 is more noisy, and the stringsare sluggish, although they are thicker.

I checked the height of the strings from the keyboard and the 1963 ES 175 appear to be even lower then mine. My 175 neck seems to have a correct position, however could it depend on keyboard angle? What if I step back its neck, could I get the same clean sound? Should I chance strings trying Tomastik?
Thanks for help

[mr quick]

Seems to me that there's a neck relief issue.

[marceff]

Sorry Marvin, do you mean to step the neck forward rather than back? Bringing forward the neck (keyboard side), should not result a lower string tension?

[Franz 1997]

Sounds like a neck relief issue, as MM says. I'd suggest having the neck relief adjusted by a tech., unless you have previous experience in doing it and have the correct tool ( a gibson truss rod wrench - you might have one in the case). Once the neck is nearly straight, you may then need to adjust the bridge so that the action over the top E, 12th fret is approximately 1. 5 mm.

If none of this makes sense, take it to a tech!! Changing strings will make little difference, if any.

[pingu]

yes the guitar needs a 'set-up'
(best money you'll ever spend)

[marceff]

Thanks for info, still I'm not sure about the meaning of "relief", would it refer to the truss rod (counter-clockwise)?
Counter-clockwise would step back the neck? Sorry but English is not my language (as you may noticed).

[nickyboy]

My 2010 175 has chunky laminate. It looks the same thickness at the laminate of my 88 es335.
I also have a Gretsch 6120sslvo which feels like a toy in comparison.
The Gretsch has trestle bracing. I suspect that without this it'd literally collapse!

[Franz 1997]

Thanks for info, still I'm not sure about the meaning of "relief", would it refer to the truss rod (counter-clockwise)?
Counter-clockwise would step back the neck? Sorry but English is not my language (as you may noticed).

'relief' means a very slight forward bend in the neck. Don't let the neck bend backwards. It must be straight, or straight plus a littler relief.
To get more relief, the truss rod nut is turned counter-clockwise, looking from the head towards the body.
Too much relief means very high action. Too little relief means that the strings buzz.

[marceff]

Thank you all, guys. Your suggestions helped a lot.

[Jabberwocky]

Stop, marceff. Don't know where you are. Take it to a TECH who knows what he is doing with archtop set-ups. Not just any guy who calls himself a tech.

I'm gonna scare you because it is for your own good. A broken Gibson truss rod is a $1500 repair. And loss of resale value. A good tech costs $50 per hour. Pay your $50.

There are guys here who will snort at this but let them take a risk with their own guitar to prove their point, not your guitar. You don't even know what neck relief is. Leave it to a real tech.

Google "broken Gibson truss rod".

Look, it is easy to screw up because it is easy to "insert tool; turn nut". The proper way is the Dan Erlewine way where the truss rod does no work except to hold the desired neck relief.

[Franz 1997]

There are guys here who will snort at this but let them take a risk with their own guitar to prove their point, not your guitar. You don't even know what neck relief is. Leave it to a real tech.

Look, it is easy to screw up because it is easy to "insert tool; turn nut". The proper way is the Dan Erlewine way where the truss rod does no work except to hold the desired neck relief.

Unless I'm seeing things, everyone's saying take it to a tech unless you know what you are doing.

I happen to agree with you on the last point, and apply back pressure when adjusting relief. But let's not kid ourselves
that most players or even techs will do that; clamping into a back-bow takes time. Adjusting truss rods are a bit like driving a car; yes, you can do a lot of damage if you don't know what you are doing, but that doesn't mean you should never drive, once you do.

[marceff]

Hi you all and thanks for suggestions and advises.
Too late Jabber... at the time you sent your advise, I already made my first turn (quarter of it, I should say).
As a magic touch, everything chanced! I was playing another instrument, amazing! (just first and second string to adjust a bit).
Then a string broke and yesterday I replaced them all, mounting .012 to 50 Thomastik (rather then D'Addario chrome 012 to 52). So I had to work a bit more trying to find the right set up. Now it is quite ok, but still need to find the right balance between top of the keyboard and area around 12-13-14-15 frets.

I do understand and I do appreciate your advises and I also agree with you, but it mast be a first time...
It did not occur wide turn, max range was half turn and, as I wrote, it really makes the difference.

I think I should work a bit with the bridge hight as well to get the best result.

[Franz 1997]

Glad it worked out marceff. But for information, once you have got the neck straight with a very little relief, only very small changes ( 10% or less) of a turn are required to adjust with the seasons.

[Archie]

Hi you all and thanks for suggestions and advises.
Too late Jabber... at the time you sent your advise, I already made my first turn (quarter of it, I should say).
As a magic touch, everything chanced! I was playing another instrument, amazing! (just first and second string to adjust a bit).
Then a string broke and yesterday I replaced them all, mounting .012 to 50 Thomastik (rather then D'Addario chrome 012 to 52). So I had to work a bit more trying to find the right set up. Now it is quite ok, but still need to find the right balance between top of the keyboard and area around 12-13-14-15 frets.

I do understand and I do appreciate your advises and I also agree with you, but it mast be a first time...
It did not occur wide turn, max range was half turn and, as I wrote, it really makes the difference.

I think I should work a bit with the bridge hight as well to get the best result.

If your having issues up that far on the 'Keyboard' (we say fretboard), it sounds more like your neck is Ramping. Its very common on Gibsons. In fact, I think they might be trying to trade mark it

[mad dog]

I do know how to adjust the truss rod, do simple setup stuff, but still take a new (used) guitar to my luthier friend for setup. Reason being, there's more going on (most often) than just neck relief.

I watch him work, and am amazed at all the little tweaks it takes to optimize playability. Adjust relief. Level and dress frets. (This can take a fair amount of time, a slow and exacting process). Restring. Check intonation. Check nut slots - evening out string height if it's not right. Re-check everything.

So worth the money! You can hear as well as feel the difference. What little I know cannot compare that that level of expertise.
MD

[marceff]

I red your posts very carefully (didn't understand AchtopHeaven comment, I am not so good in English) and I do agree with you: better let an expert do the setting.

Here, in Italy, where I leave, there are many good violin makers and repairs, who I know and they do not deal with electric guitar, truss rods and staff like that. There are also some good guitar techs who I do not know and it's hard to believe someone who defines himself good. We use to say: "don't ask the host if his wine is good".
I play for my own pleasure, so I do not know other guitar player that may suggest me who is good and who is not. So I decided that if someone has to cause damage to my guitar, I better be.

Writing to have turned the truss rod within a range of half turn (which was just a bit more that 1/4 really), I didn't mean that this was my setting; I just wanted explore the changes little by little. I also red on a web site (which someone of you recommended me) that sometime the pitch of the screw could be different so it needs to widen the range.

I am still working on setting, which becomes better (working on bridge).
I also changed strings which needed a further truss rod adjustment, as gauge was a bit thiner that D'Addario and I may come back to bigger gauge.
My guitar seems to be in good shape, despite my attempts and sound improved quite sensible since before.

I sure have to thank you who guided me to achieve it.

[jazzbow]

Marceff, I have been given a 2010 Gibson Les Paul Studio for set up and adjusting work.
The owner bought it new and apart from changing strings he said it has never played in tune.
The neck was bowed and the string action distance was far too much.
I tightened the truss rod as much as 3 quarter turns until the fretboard(keyboard/fingerboard) was flat.
There was lacquer paint finish on the truss rod adjusting nut and it locked the nut in its original position.
This meant that the truss rod had not been adjusted since leaving the factory.
Once I set the neck relief (flat fretboard) the G string developed a rattle when played.
The string slot had been cut too deeply, this was also like this from the factory.
The owner still had the original guarantee card with check boxes that were all ticked 'yes' and that it had passed its quality test.
Unfortunately a large portion of Gibson guitars are made by robots and unskilled workers, they also miss out on care and attention in the factory.
I always expect Fenders need adjusting as they have always been made by robots and unskilled workers but people expect a little bit more with Gibson.

Jazzbow says 'Always get your new and used guitars set up for playability'.

ATH mentions 'ramping' and may be mistaken.

Ramping is when you groove a fixed bridge on a flat top guitar to increase the break angle of a string over the saddle.


This is an attempt at lowering the string action. This is because of warping of the sound board into an arch behind the bridge.
If this happens on a guitar with great value then you would take the neck off and reset it.


If the guitar is of low value the cheapest way to fix high string action is to lower the bridge and saddle slot.


After I have reduced the bridge height and saddle slot I need to ramp the string from the pin onto the saddle.
This is ramping.


This is the same bridge with the work done.

Your guitar does not need ramping.

You may have a 'hump'.

An archtop neck stops at the body join at around the 14th fret. Then there is a separate piece of wood called the 'tongue' that is glued in place to extend the fretboard.
As wood settles and dries differently the fretboard over the join does not shrink but the other parts do.

This leaves a hump which makes strings buzz a little.

A good fret level will sort this out.

Otherwise...


Frets are removed.


The fingerboard is reduced


Then frets are put back.

All very invasive and needing a competent and skilled individual. A fret level is your first priority.

I hope this helps

[marceff]

It sure helps, Jazzbow! Thank you for explanation, it really opens my mind for this concern.

I should say that my Gibson seems ok now: I did flatten the neck as much as I could, that's why I went a bit over turning the truss rod to check the best angle. No buzz at all, although this new set of strings (Thomastik 12 to 50) is too lose, compare to D'Addario same gauge, so I'll probably switch to 013 to 54. Action also seems ok, I raised a bit the bridge to a good compromise sound/action.
As I use to play with fingers (right hand), so I tend to put too much strength sometime: I should always play using amplifier.

I also noticed that flattening the neck has cleaned the sound, so that lower pitch got clearer, even a bit too much. I think I could achieve the best result (at least for my ears) mounting a thicker strings.

Any other suggestion will be more that appreciated.

[jazzbow]

It sure helps, Jazzbow! Thank you for explanation, it really opens my mind for this concern.

I should say that my Gibson seems ok now: I did flatten the neck as much as I could, that's why I went a bit over turning the truss rod to check the best angle. No buzz at all, although this new set of strings (Thomastik 12 to 50) is too lose, compare to D'Addario same gauge, so I'll probably switch to 013 to 54.

Thomastik flatwounds are lower tension so on a Gibson scale will seem loose. D'Addario are stiff.

[Archie]

Thomastik flatwounds are lower tension so on a Gibson scale will seem loose. D'Addario are stiff.

Apparently due to the inner core being a different shape.