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i play mainstream jazz on a full sized archtop with humbuckers
any advice on choosing between a stock 65 fender deluxe reissue and a deluxe reissue ll (hand wired rivera - 80s)?
much appreciated
thanks
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10-28-2015 08:23 AM
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No comparison. The drri is a far better amp imho.
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Originally Posted by AlainJazz
really?
and you have an L5 i seem to remember
everyone else i've consulted is enthusiastically endorsing the DR2
can you say more?
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I'd strongly disagree with Alain. The Rivera amp ( A Deluxe R II, not a reissue II) is hardwired, as you say, and has more robust transformers. The hand wiring makes it much easy to maintain and therefore is more likely to keep its value. The DR re-issue is no doubt a good amp, but is comparatively difficult to repair due to the PC board construction. I've never owned one, but I understand there have been hiss problems with the reissues.
The circuits are very similar, except that the Rivera has ( I think) a lead boost feature and reverb on both channels ( a v good idea) . Any significant difference in sound between the two is more likely to be due to different speakers, IMO.
I'd take the Rivera any day. But bear in mind that, for jazz, neither will have as much midrange as many SS 'jazz amps'.
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thanks for yet more help Chris!
got a lot of time for Alain's views - love to hear more from him - but what you say chris has been said to me by a number of very knowledgeable people - including Sam Sherry - in the last few hours
thanks everyone!
right now i'm thinking i'll exchange my henriksen 110 (with custom tolex) for a mambo 8
and test out the tubes with the DR2 - if i can snap it up quick enough
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Chris is totally right that the Rivera era amps are really high quality. They're built like a tank and have a classic look to them to boot. Open it up and you'll be impressed by how well its made. The problem is that they truly sound like crap, and they also weigh a ton. If you are looking for a classic Fender sound, you won't get it with the Rivera era amps. They sound sterile and farty.
The DRRI probably won't be as easy to repair as the Rivera DR2, but that would not be a killer argument for me. The DRRI is a great amp.
However, I need to add an important point:
I hate the Rivera era Fenders. I do love the DRRI for pretty much everything ... except Jazz. I find the scooped Fender sound is not good for Jazz. I have a 68 silverface deluxe that I love, but I don't love it with the L5. To me the L5 sounds much better through a Henriksen or a Mambo amp. Just my 2 cents. I know many will probably disagree with me and that's ok.
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Alain, although I don't agree, I know what you mean. From memory, the Rivera had a tightened-up power supply and I think a very different speaker from the original Jensen, so would sound 'tighter'. Possibly ''they truly sound like crap" might be something of an overstatement, but yes, perhaps not the typical loose DLRV sound which is so great for many styles ( just not jazz) . I'd still take the Rivera, though. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
I do love the DRRI for pretty much everything ... except Jazz. I find the scooped Fender sound is not good for Jazz. I have a 68 silverface deluxe that I love, but I don't love it with the L5. To me the L5 sounds much better through a Henriksen or a Mambo amp. Just my 2 cents. I know many will probably disagree with me and that's ok.
But Alain, I do agree with this, and for the same reason.I've had an L5 too ( as you know..) and found it just wouldn't work with an original Princeton amp, often said to the be the sweetest fender made, even more so that the DLRV. Why?
For me, the top strings just lacked weight, due to the in-built mid-range cut of the classic fender circuit.
That said, of course some monster players make fenders work for them. Anthony Wilson's Byrdland through a Twin comes to mind
I really like the mambo 8 for a straight-ahead, classic jazz sound, an amp that you can carry around in a shopping bag.
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serious stuff guys
i wonder how much of the love for the fender tubes is coming from people who do a lot of things that are not or are not quite mainstream jazz with them
i had a rivera jazz supreme with a 15'' speaker for a while. found it very hard to live with the background noise and the complexity of the controls. but very much liked the sound
but as soon as i heard my old clarus amp with a new redstone audio rs12 cab i did not want to play the rivera any more.
perhaps i should take this experience more seriously - together with what Alain and Chris are saying
thanks a lot guys - you could save me a lot of bother here
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I've owned a pair of the Rivera era Fenders, a Concert and a Princeton. Both were toneless P.O.S. Among the worst amp purchases I've ever made.
DRRI for me. Works well with humbuckers, though if you're a "turn down the volume/tone controls on the guitar" kinda player it might not have enough headroom for you.
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its probably the bernstein-factor that keeps me interested in the tubes
sounding like wes is not a goal. listening to him is enough for me. i'd better be trying for something else - something more modest...
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I agree that the scooped Fender sound might not always be the best for jazz. I find that more true with single coils, or more specific the P90 of my ES-125. With my Twin I tend to put the mid knob on 10 and treble and bass almost off (but then it sounds really great!) I have also especially modified the tonestack of the normal channel to Bassman/Marshall specs and that's better for the P90. My (modified) Blues Deluxe has also more mids and also works better with the P90.
For my ES-333 with 57 Classic pup, I love the Fender sound (Doesn't Bernstein's guitar have a 57 Classic as well?).
Now PCB vs 'hard wired' (eyelet or turret board): does nothing for the sound, but I am a tinkerer, so I prefer 'hard wired', that's easier to work on. I can't comment about how both those amps compare to each other sound wise.Last edited by Little Jay; 10-29-2015 at 02:23 AM.
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v. interesting about the pickups - bernstein does use a 57 as far as i know a full size floating one.
show off.
god he sounds great
and that's a tube sound -
i was wondering if the list of players mentioned by David were all quite 'modern' players who use the slightly gainy or overdriven sound. pb is such a traditionalist that he doesn't fall in with that rosenwinkle et. al. thing. not 'modern' in that sense. but he perhaps has a very very special way of setting up the amp and playing his guitar which makes a DRRI work perfectly.
i wonder how he'd sound with a mambo?
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Having owned several, I agree completely. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
Disagree strongly. The distinctions are modest, particularly in a band context, and the Ed Jahns / "Rivera" amps offer a lot more sonic choices. Plus, speakers have gotten a lot better since 1984. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
The solid-state rectified Jahns / "Rivera" amps deliver tighter, more controllable, more useful bottom. The tube-rectified DRRI runs toward "loose" when you get it up to band volume.
The DRRIs are reaching the age where that matters, and it's a one-way street. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
Play on!
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its what johnny smith thought wasn't it? that you needed a flat frequency response for the archtop not one with boosted top and bottom and lost mids.
maybe all these guys had ways of coping with the issue - and had to have such ways because its these amps that are always available in clubs and studios etc.
the sound island amps - and maybe some others too - are designed to give you the tube warmth and thickness without the problems generated by the lost mids and the boosted bottom end.
maybe?
you get a very good sound if you lower the mid-frequency range on the henriksen
but you get a fatter sound if you don't
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Just in case it is of use to anyone, here is the Rivera-era Deluxe Reverb II user's manual link:
http://www.stratopastor.org.uk/strat...I%20manual.pdf
I am, regrettably, a tone-deaf, fumble-fingered no-talent bum and cannot really offer any useful info
here despite owning a DeLuxe Reverb II and a '51 ES-125 with its original P90. I just knock out my
little chord thingies in the seclusion of the cave. I've owned no other tube amp, always prefer single coils
& simply can't assert any objective timbral claim.
I will say that all the kids on my block respect this amp, especially those with considerable professional
experience (although not much jazz.) There is definitely a certain status associated with this box.
I was completely ignorant of this when I made my purchase, by the way.
I wish you the best of luck & hope you get an amp you really enjoy.
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In the end there's only one real way to judge what's the best amp : play it and use your ears!
For what it's worth: I have never played on a Fender tube amp that sounded really bad (although some have their limitations). I even manage to get good clean sounds out of the cheap FM-series.....
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I modded my post a little, I did not mean to imply Fenders are too scooped for jazz. Quite the contrary, I love the BF/SF sound and drag my Twin everywhere I can. But if you are used to hearing your single coil on a Polytone or Henriksen you might want to dial in more mids Originally Posted by ingeneri
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Hi Jon, Originally Posted by Groyniad
Here's PB on my DRRI:
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one of my favourite tunes - always has been
love it even more since i heard him do it as a duo with a great piano player
thanks for this - its just gorgeous
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my god he loses time at about 2:36
i feel like a tosser for pointing it out
but then there's the subtlest stardust quote i've ever heard that rather makes up for it
that ending is worthy of bill evans
and this is so quiet that you might think it was unamplified - what an intimate gig!Last edited by Groyniad; 10-29-2015 at 12:28 PM.
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I owned a Rivera era Concert (2X10) and a DRRI. I found both too bright/harsh for my taste. And the Concert was too heavy to boot.
I currently own a 74 Deluxe Reverb that I put a Tone Tubby Alnico speaker into. It has a superb jazz tone with humbuckers.
I do not think the PCB DRRI reissues are in the same league with the handwired originals at all. If you are playing a high end guitar, get a high end amp. A vintage Deluxe Reverb with a quality speaker is a great jazz amp. It has enough headroom to play jazz with a drummer. Almost all rooms that you need more volume than the Deluxe Reverb delivers have PA systems these days so the need for a Pro or a Twin is pretty slim (and who wants to carry those amps?)
At the end of the day the vintage Deluxe Reverb (Black or Silver) will hold its value better than either of the two choices in the thread title.
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Two issues going on here. First, the relative merits of various incarnations of the DR - and DR reissue - amp. I'd say that it's fairly obvious that a hand-wired amp is going to have 2 points in its favour; resale value, and repairability. The latter doesn't matter- until you need it repaired. Then, it does. Yes, an original BF or SF may well be the nicest to own, but the Rivera/ Jahns amps can sound very good with the right speaker IMO, although they will be tighter-sounding due to the SS rectification. The Rivera may well be a more affordable option - in the UK, even SFs go for £1500+/ $2300/ Eu 2100. In the US, cheaper no doubt. In my experience, the speaker installed in a DR has a lot to do with the tone. In the UK, a lot of people installed Altec 417s in these amps when the originals blew - they sounded great, although very clean.
The second point is about fenders for jazz. There's no doubt that these amps come with at least 10db of midrange cut at 'normal' settings - though this can be negated by turning the T & B right down. But that midrange cut is part of the fender sound; it's designed in. Even the output transformers emphasise highs. Apparent, Leo hated midrange.
Some seminal recordings have been made with fenders, often DRs. And they sound great; KB, WM, et al. That's not in question. But it's all about personal taste in the end; I don't think anyone's really going to argue against the idea that, IF you prefer more midrange and 'fatness' , there are other amps that will give you it. I'd imagine that's why Polytone established a variable niche back in the 70s as an alternative, and possibly why a few early players went to the Gibson amp as an alternative e.g. Jim Hall.
It all seems , to me, to boil down to what kind of sound you are looking for. To my ears, the Bernstein clip sounds a little thin tonally, but I understand that to many others, it will sound just right.
I do agree that an L5 deserves a high end amp, whatever the tonal flavour.
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Throwing this out there Groyniad.. Originally Posted by Groyniad
Glasgow company based in basement of CCmusic in west end. Great guys for a chat.
http://www.flynnamps.co.uk/usadeluxereverb.html
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Either of those amps can be great all 'rounders. I see a solid state rectifier being a good quality for jazz, so the Rivera could be a cool amp. I have never had a DRRI speak to me, and I tend to stay away from PCBs. If you like fender tube clean, the non-reverb princetons stay clean all the way up. But why buy a fender amp that doesn't have reverb, I say.
If you want more midrange out of a fender, put a british voiced speaker in it. If you don't like the sound of fender amps though, pass on them both and get something you like. I see vintage ampegs all the time for less than a DRRI. Ampegs were designed for jazz, fenders were designed for surf and country. They have great midrange. Or a tweed deluxe style amp with bigger power transformer. Lot's of options around $800
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