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Thinking about replacing the rosewood bridge on my 175 with an ebony one to see if I can liven it up a bit. Will it really make much of a difference?
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05-17-2016 03:39 PM
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Amplified, I'd say a minimal on all fronts.
When you say "liven up," what do you mean exactly? I think a tune-o-matic can add some sustain, for example.
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It's mainly the bass strings--- very thunky with not much sustain. Strung w/ TI flats. Put a TOM on the Jazzica which made a world of difference. I ask because I had already ordered an ebony bridge for the Jazzica before trying the TOM. it was too late to cancel the order so I have to decide what to do with the bridge.
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So basically, your 175 sounds like the 175 tone that jazz guitarists all over the world love and chase?
Originally Posted by jbucklin
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LOL! Yeah, it could be that that's not a tone I like. The tone I've always been after is the Jim Hall tone, after he had the ebony fretboard installed on his 175 and, what I've always thought, a pup that Attila Zoller made for that guitar. The albums, "It's Nice To Be With You" and "Jim Hall Live!" is specifically what I'm talking about. No thunkiness from that 175!
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Suddenly I just realized that the bridge on my Loar LH650, which is the same body size, scale length, etc. as the ES175, has an ebony bridge. It might be fun to pop that sucker into the ES175 just to see if it makes a difference.
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Actually I bet I could get 95% of that tone on any of 3 or 4 arch tops I currently have. For some guitars, that tone is "native" and you just plug it in and it's there. My ES175 is perfect with the tone at 10 and the amp EQ flat. But I imagine I could set up my Epiphone Broadway, or Aria Pro II PE180 and be really close. Originally Posted by jbucklin
It's a lot of fun to swap out elements of a guitar to see what benefit or loss results. I love that stuff. I think I should buy guitars with no pickups installed at all, just because selecting a pickup and obsessing over it is so much fun. But the fact is, I think with a well built guitar, a solid amp, and good ears, we don't need to do much else.
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I love the Antiquity that you recommended, Lawson. I've tried various strings, including rounds, and have landed on the TI flats for the moment. Here's Jim Hall, and the sound I'm chasing after:
Last edited by jbucklin; 05-17-2016 at 05:36 PM.
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I really like that. If I were you, I don't think I'd try to change much at all. The bass is not overpowering the way it can be on so many archtops. I personally think the sustain often attributed to TOM bridges is not the metal, but the notch the string sits in. I have always suspected the way that notch is cut has an impact on the string's vibration. On TOMs that's a very sharp, clean angle. On wood bridges, often it's rounder, and the wood of course is softer, which absorbs some of the vibrations. My theory anyhow.
But your tone and playing here are gorgeous, IMO. Just gorgeous.
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Oh my! I should have mentioned: that's Jim Hall. I was tempted to let you go on believing it was me! He wrote that tune for his daughter.
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Thank God! I was about to become Ultra-Hyper-Über-Intimidated. The next statement you made about playing jazz guitar I was going to have tattooed on my butt. That was astonishingly beautiful playing! Originally Posted by jbucklin
Whew. Not that I'm glad you can't play that way... but to think I was advising someone on a pickup who could play like that scared me spitless.
I think that track does set a certain bar in the tone department. I think I know what you mean about a kind of "thud" quality in the bass. I have a guitar that does that. When I put new strings on it, I don't hear it but in just a couple days, it's there. All of which has me thinking it's the slots in the bridge somehow not being exactly right. But I hate to mess with wooden bridges because it's hard to undo your mistakes.
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I highly recommend that album. It's called "It's Nice To Be With You: Jim Hall in Berlin".
An amazing trio with Daniel Humair on drums. He also overdubs a second guitar track on some of the tunes, including some duos with himself, such as the one I posted. His interpretation of "In a Sentimental Mood" is breathtakingly beautiful and sublime.
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Yes, flats on this guitar sound great--- for a couple of days, and then THUNK! Maybe Jim always changed before recording. Knowing him, he probably didn't!
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The reason I think it's the bridge slots is that I'm speculating the new string at first is sitting high on the bridge saddle, and rings more, but then the string's tension pulls it down after a day, or after a certain amount of playing, and the depth of the slot muffles it slightly.
But this is totally a wacko-theory of mine, I haven't tested it or checked with a different bridge. I'm in a lull right now where I don't want to change my gear around, just play what I have. But once the gear-tinkering demon stirs again, I might check out different bridges on my "thud" guitar.
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Yeah, I think I've pretty much hit the saturation point. Bought more guitars over the past couple of months than I have in years. I've obsessively tinkered with them to the point where I'm starting to think I'm going mad! After listening to that Jim Hall track I began to notice that so much of his tone comes from a very delicate pick attack (or caress). I've been sitting here playing the 175 for awhile and I'm very close to his sound. But not quite there! Part of me hopes I never achieve it. That way I can always marvel at his gorgeous sound!
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I had An Interesting Experience with ebony versus rosewood bridge saddles on my Matt Cushman guitar. I had damaged the original, which I thought was rosewood, by knocking a chunk out from under the A string. I replaced it with an ebony one by Bill Gagnon that I spotted on eBay the same day for a very cheap price. Nicely made (this was a saddle and base combination, not just a saddle). It made the guitar much brighter and the strings between the bridge and tailpiece rang out terribly. That was eventually replaced with a Sadowsky compensated wood bridge saddle on Matt's original base but that buzzed badly when I switched to roundwounds again.
I contacted Matt about getting a replacement saddle and we discussed wood types. I thought rosewood would give a darker sound. He sent me a rosewood and an ebony bridge saddle to use with the original base. I put the rosewood in, expecting a darker tone but it was just the opposite- bright, almost jangly with a lot of overtones. Whoa, sez I, that is not what I expected. I put in the ebony and that was dark, focused with a prominent fundamental, rather than the overtones emphasized with the rosewood. This was with TI BB113s.
Matt had marked the mass of the bridges- the rosewood was something like 7g and the ebony was 12g- on the underside. Reporting my findings back to him, Matt noted that he has found the mass of the saddle to be very important to tone. Based on my experience, I would suggest not necessarily looking for a different wood but for a lighter or heavier saddle depending on the sound you want. I wonder if the much greater mass of the TOM saddle has a bigger impact on the tone than the fact that the saddles are metal. I also wonder if reducing the mass of the saddle- milling a slot into the underside, for example- would alter the tone.
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I never thought of that.
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The bridge and saddle are always going to play a big role in the tone of a guitar, both electric and acoustic. The saddle is the contact point for the string for every note on that string so if that contact is not good the sound is not good for all those notes. The wooden saddle can wear down over time and get too deep or too wide. The metal saddles are v notched and don't wear easily so they don't often buzz. So a wood saddle must have a shallow notch to prevent buzzing and have a clear tone. When the notch gets too deep, the string can make contact with the sides of the notch and may buzz. For acoustic guitars, the bridge is the point that the strings drive the top so weight and other variables have a big influence on tone and volume.
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For archtop instruments it seems as if the lighter the bridge, the brighter the tone with a possible boost in volume as well.
Last edited by Matt Cushman; 05-17-2016 at 07:08 PM.
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I'm looking at the bridge and it appears that the notches are very shallow, so the guys at Gibson's custom shop obviously knew what they were doing. I sold a Benedetto Bravo to get this guitar. Benedettos are inherently bright and turn muddy when backing off the tone knob. I got what I bargained for however as this 175 is very dark sounding. I would like to have just a little high end sizzle in it though, so maybe the ebony bridge will do the trick. But then again maybe not!
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I have no point of comparison for this, but suspect the replacement ebony bridge on my '50s Silvertone 1427 archtop plays a big role in the sound of that guitar. It's a very lightly braced (if at all) pressed spruce top, ES-175 size but a bit shallower, with dark and hot P-13 pickups. The stock ebony bridge was crap to start, and worn out. My luthier buddy changed so much, planed the board, refret with jumbo frets, replaced most of the neck binding, all the fretboard inlays. He hand carved the new bridge, which is twice as heavy as the old one. And certainly high graded ebony, while the old one, who knows?
Anyway, it's a different instrument now, quite impressive when you get some volume going. I can't A/B the change retroactively, but suspect that new bridge is the secret stuff.
MD
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jim hall used stainless steel flats..he used d'aquisto 11's for years...great strings (sadly no longer made)
thomastiks are pure nickel...great string but sound different..less magnetic output
try ghs, labella or dr's
great lp (despite the cover....haha)
cheers
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Lighter strings, more amp, and Jim's touch.
What's wrong with the cover, he's just feeding a girl a sausage and oh now I get it and that's gross.
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Years ago I tried DR Legend flats after reading that Bobby Broom used them on his Hofner Jazzica. I remember not liking them, but then again, that's when I still used 13s---I've moved down to 11s; probably due to that horrible reality called AGING. So maybe stainless steel 11s may be the way to go.
Also, neatomic, you're one of the only other persons who knows about that Jim Hall record. Hard to believe that was only his second recording as a leader---newly sober and fresh off the Merv Griffin Show!
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He did an online question and answer thing back in the 90s and I asked what was going on in his life when he recorded that album. He answered back---I was expecting something dark and philosophical--and he said it was his first European tour after Merv and took his wife Jane, his daughter and a friend of hers along with him on the tour and they had a blast sightseeing etc. That's his daughter that he's feeding the bratwurst to. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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