How fast is your guitar amp?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

As someone with electrical engineering training and some hands-on experience with tube and solid state circuits, I'm not sure what a "fast amp" would relate to in technical terms. But I suspect what Benson perceives perceives as "fast" is the combination of headroom (lots of excess power and efficient speakers) and minimal compression/sag (solid state rectifiers). When playing fast at high volumes, sag will cut the volume of subsequent notes, which might be perceived as a delay.

I love playing through a Twin Reverb when I can stand the weight (which is rarely!). The Benson model has Jenson Tornado neo speakers, which shaves off a lot. Since I have one Tornado, I'm considering trying it in my SF Twin along with an Eminence RW&B that's currently in it. I have a feeling I might like that combination, and the weight reduction would be nice.

The Benson model also sports a pine cabinet. According to the Fender web site, it weighs 50lbs versus 64lbs for the TRRI (the '65 model). That's significant. And some earlier Twin models were much heavier than 64lbs.

[agentsmith]

benson uses a tube amp and solid state amp in parallel. Only, he says it's the SS amp that is the fast amp.

[lawson-stone]

(I see our comments have just crossed!)

I wouldn't argue against that claim.

I think Joe Pass could play with tone, timing and melodic inventiveness of such beauty as to match - if not surpass - 'bebop' players on any instrument. I think he could, but I'm saying I don't think he was doing so here.

I don't think either of those clips shows him playing 'bebop' music (except perhaps nominally) - mainly because the rhythmic dynamics aren't sufficiently varied to warrant that description, but also (honest opinion) because I expect better (cleaner) articulation. No 'Eye of the Tiger' - I think even NHOP was phoning it in (and that's understandable).

My point was simply that the claim that an old Polytone was too "slow" for fast bebop. Those two clips, I think solidly refute any complaint of he Polytone being to slow.


-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf

[destinytot]

My point was simply that the claim that an old Polytone was too "slow" for fast bebop. Those two clips, I think solidly refute any complaint of he Polytone being to slow.

I think so, too.

Besides which, my own Polytone was regularly used (in my presence) by Sean Levitt (to whom Joe Pass was encouraging and kind), and who frequently played PDQ.

[MaxTwang]

It's a Tortoise and the Hare thing for me: In high school me and the other guitar player in the school jazz band were racing our Fender Supers to a gig. The other guy, with the newer & sportier master volume Super, was out in front when he hit a crack in the sidewalk and rolled with his amp, I cruised by with my older 'vintage' Super and made it to the gig first.

It's not about the speed of the amp, but the control & trajectory of the driver/operator.


BTW those old Fenders are tough amps, the amp survived with just a few light scuffs.

[christianm77]

I find AER's sometimes a bit hard to play - when turned up a little. Are AER's a bit saggy?

[Groyniad]

my guess is that its just a matter of how defined or crisp the sound is.

the 'fast' amp has a very good sharp 'attack' - some might find it too bright or cutting

the 'slow' amp has a much softer or mushier attack - some might find it too dark or dull

the difference if you're trying to play bright 8ths is amazing - i would never have guessed that the amp could have such an immediate effect on technique

i haven't played polytone in twenty years so i'm guessing - i just remember mine being very dark. i'm thinking of the fender amps as fast because they have such a strong and cutting top end - 'sparkle'. i think the improvement in technique has come about because i'm getting a clear note really effortlessly - so i'm not working the right hand as hard and its relaxing and starting to work better.

i suspect that many of us shy away from crisp clear sounds with archtops because these sounds are very unforgiving (and we need forgiveness of course) - but this can end up hamstringing us if we're trying to learn how to play fluidly at bright tempos.

[vernon]

I am grateful for Larry Carlton, who, in response to a boisterous uptempo song request, simply replied, "No. Too fast."

[entresz]

From what I gather, fast / slow is referring to the way the amp compresses and the amount of 'sag' in its response? Big SS amps are great for having zero sag and zero compression and 'immediacy' in response to changes in dynamics.

There's more to this too- I have always found that single coils such as P-90s and Charlie Christian pickups seem to be more responsive to dynamics. It's largely why I prefer single coils on my guitars, I can get a really satisfying 'thwack' out of them, where humbuckers tend to be more 'smooshy'.

So as for 'fast' response I think there more to it than just the amp.

[neatomic]

basically it's exploring the same terrain as archtops with solid spruce vs laminated tops..that bit of difference in the way the note pops off the top...to some it means little..to others it defines the way they play...

and it's not about fast vs slow in terms of run speed...

cheers

[neatomic]

From what I gather, fast / slow is referring to the way the amp compresses and the amount of 'sag' in its response? Big SS amps are great for having zero sag and zero compression and 'immediacy' in response to changes in dynamics.

There's more to this too- I have always found that single coils such as P-90s and Charlie Christian pickups seem to be more responsive to dynamics. It's largely why I prefer single coils on my guitars, I can get a really satisfying 'thwack' out of them, where humbuckers tend to be more 'smooshy'.

So as for 'fast' response I think there more to it than just the amp.

good post!..but pre-amp tube compression can be a major factor in quick response as well...remember they swaped out the #1 tube for a 12ay7 in the gb fender twin...so ole george is diggin for something specific tonewise...& good for him!!

cheers

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I've read that some folks don't like modelling amps because the processing supposedly slows down the response. I haven't noticed this, but had anyone felt this sort of slowness?

[mr. beaumont]

This is why I'm only playing acoustic these days. I've hired a guy to hold a megaphone in front of my soundhole. His name is Paul, but the guys in the band call him 'Ampy."

[MaxTwang]

I've read that some folks don't like modelling amps because the processing supposedly slows down the response. I haven't noticed this, but had anyone felt this sort of slowness?

Modelers have latency as you convert the signal from analog to digital, then process, then convert back to analog - so there is some disconnect compared to an analog amp, but with a good unit it's rarely worse than you would experience being 5 - 10 feet from your amp (the speed of sound + distance = latency). Back in my modeling days I spent a lot of time analyzing the AxeFx & Kemper and how tone affects perceived feel (no I don't do drugs, yes I am that pathetically geeky).

It's amazing how much tone does affect 'feel'. IME modelers 'feel' stiffer as they reproduce the mic'd speaker sound close to the cone so they reproduce a wider response than we perceive from our amps. Amps are also notoriously directional while FRFR systems are designed to have a wider full range dispersion - point the amp at your knees and the audience gets harsh & piercing highs while we hear off-axis smooth tone, we usually aren't hearing the frequencies that make our amplifiers sound 'stiff' and 'harsh'.

If you have a parametric EQ try experimenting with lo/hi pass and peaking various mid-range bands and see if you 'feel' a difference with your amp.

Also,

Tubes are non-linear devices: A tube might be more linear when run cold but exhibit less linearity when run hot (or maybe the inverse - I've forgotten some of my tube theory). A tube amp can be designed to emphasize or de-emphasize compression, gain and tone envelopes in the tube by changing the operating parameters of the tube through changing the voltage at the anode, cathode, screen, etc. Kinda like when the brakes of your car get 'squishy' when they heat up on a long down hill.

Solid state amps can be designed to reproduce some of these characteristics too. Weber Speakers has 'Copper Cap Rectifiers' which are silicone diode rectifier circuits designed to produce sag like a tube rectifier.

One neat thing the AxeFx can do is apply an envelope modifier to most any parameter, so you can exaggerate the attack by applying an envelope modifier to gain or volume, you can also target specific frequencies or compression to give your sound a 'bouncier' 'feel'. Think of an Envelope Filter pedal that, instead of sounding like an 'auto wah', changes gain, drive, level and/or tone.

[RonD]

I love this thread! Coming soon!


Just having fun...

[MaxTwang]

OK I found some of my old jpg's from spectral analysis of a Boogie Mark II vs. the AxeFx's Tone Match of the Boogie. If you look closely you'll see the spectrum changes depending on the level of the input (in this case a synth producing white noise). What was interesting was when playing a guitar into the Axe & Boogie you could see how the level and frequency spectrum changed with attack, decay, sustain and release (I should have shot a video of the frequency analyzer). By fiddling with the Axe I could change its response and see the changes in the frequency graph, not just the overall level. Frequency response plays such a huge role in perceived 'feel'.

* Graphs are measurements of amp only (no speaker or speaker sim). Axe is on the left, Boogie on the right - the Axe's Tone Match has a bit more highs/lows than the amp.






Who has time to gig, jam or sleep when you can spend time analyzing your gear, and playing, with a frequency spectrum analyzer.

[MaxTwang]

While our discussion has primarily addressed the contributions of the amplifier, the speaker design, materials and components can play a tremendous role in shaping our tone and 'feel'.

[vintagelove]

I was always wondering why some tube amps are hard to get a good tone from. Maybe thats what it is, fast or slow... One thing was always annoying- a powerful tube amp at low volume sounds like absolute crap! I noticed that in guitar stores, you try one, and the sales guy tells you to keep it low, it more often than not sound horrible. Never had this problem with solid state amps though.

On a side note, is Fender Twin fast amp, or slow? Just trying to figure out which type I like.

A twin IMO (at least an old one), is in the fast but still forgiving camp.

Faster than a super reverb, a bit less forgiving. But much more forgiving than a dumble/redplate, etc.

[Longways to Go]

I'm guessing my Acoustic Image Clarus is pretty fast? IDK

[Thumpalumpacus]

Sorry, but I wouldn't call that 'bebop'.

Whatever you want to call it, it's damned good.

[Thumpalumpacus]

As for amps -- solid-state recto, and good efficient speakers. One reason I used a 4x10 rather than a 4x12 back in the day, the paper was more responsive.

[Flyin' Brian]

I've recently switched to a Phil Jones Session 77 BASS amp for guitar.

100 very clean watts, 2-7 inch speakers and one 2 inch speaker.

Unbelievable how clean it is, how fast it responds yet how much depth in the sound. The only downside is that there are no effects or an effects loops.

The upside? Phil Jones quality at $400 US dollars. And it weights a paltry 28 pounds.

[Cavalier]

I must have at least a couple "fast"" amps. Over the years I've found others lounging about.....

[Jim Soloway]

I play way too slowly to be concerned.

[destinytot]

Whatever you want to call it, it's damned good.

Sure it's damned good. On several levels.

Perhaps I'll call it a damned good party trick (not unlike the one pulled by Mr Pizzarelli the younger - who knows a good thing when he sees one - on Indiana).

But I won't call it 'bebop' - or acquiesce to consensus, coercion, conformity, cultural conditioning and commodification. Not for me the branding that makes a lie of Truth and turns Beauty into... the Grotesque.

Speaking of which, Happy Centenary Charlie Christian: 'bebop' pioneer and - er - inventor of electricity.... Now, I wonder how fast his amp was?