Could you use a gypsy style guitar for more traditional jazz?

**Stringswinger** · 08-02-2016, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by FrankLearns

To the knowledgeable crowd: i am wondering about a 25.5" scale gypsy guitar. Will it sound 'right'? I do get along with the longer scale but it is a bit of an additional struggle. People who have tried one and heard one please chime in

Frank, the original 12 fret D hole Gypsy guitars are 25.5. Some makers will do a 14 fret oval or D hole 25.5 guitar. The longer scale gives more bite, the shorter scale more bass response. I have had a few 25.5 Gypsy guitars. They are easier to play in general, but in a noisy room, or crowded jam, are harder to cut through.

**Frank67** · 08-02-2016, 05:44 PM

Thank you Marc,

I needed to hear that. So no cutting corners but bite the bullet and go with the long scale. Since I like to play with others, there is no point in having a nice sound and great playability but drowning out. In my experience most people will not play their rhythm parts quieter if the soloist is not playing loud. The reality is that I am fairly tall and also have somewhat large'ish hands. I can handle the long scale. It just takes some getting used to from the regular 25.5" archtop scale. I have a wonderful D-hole guitar but I'm looking to complement it by a nice O-hole at some point down the road.

Thanks for the advice,
cheers,
Frank

**christianm77** · 08-02-2016, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by FrankLearns

Right on Marc - nicely done!

i agree that archtops are more pleasant to play. I once tried to hang unamplified with a very powerful acoustic archtop with some GJ guys ... No chance, could not hear myself or could be heard :-(

but then there also is the subject of what the player hears vs what the audience hears. Maybe a point in case for a soundport?

Archtops project more outwards so you won't get as much 'foldback' it's true. Look at where the f holes are in relation to where your ears are. Would be interesting to compare the volumes from some distance away. My hunch would by that D holes are less loud over distance than oval holes and archtops.

Also, I don't know about your case, but you need the specific chops to project as well as the instrument. Most straightahead jazzers simply don't have that type of technique any more. Playing acoustically without an amp is pretty alien to them, but is still part of the GJ culture.

IME, an archtop optimised for acoustic projection is certainly not more pleasant to play than a maccaferri. It certainly won't feel like what most amplified jazz players are used to. In terms of ease of playability balanced against projection, Macaferri's are pretty remarkable.

**christianm77** · 08-02-2016, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by callouscallus

I spare the long winded post It's definitely possible to get a great jazz tone on a gypsy guitar. Easiest to achieve a more traditional tone with a Stimer pickup
Your touch and chops make up the other necessary ingredients

Don't see the point of Stimers - why not get an archtop?

Still if you only have a Sel-mac and want to play bebop, a Stimer is a good shout.

**Robertkoa** · 08-07-2016, 04:44 AM

Yes great Tone and great Time also...

on 'Aint Misbehavin' and your Guitar pops to the front of the Mix on your Solo but the Martin comping can still stay fairly loud .

It's getting it to project through the Mix like a Horn Player or Singer...and Django must have been thinking of that with the Vibrato also ...like a Singer or Horn.

Very cool...especially for 'live'.

I would enjoy seeing this Acoustic Style on more Modern Tunes.

**christianm77** · 08-07-2016, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Robertkoa

I would enjoy seeing this Acoustic Style on more Modern Tunes.

Check out Adrien Moingard

**Robertkoa** · 08-07-2016, 05:16 PM

Thanks Christian - I really like
Adrien a lot.

He did some slower Vibratos and a few wide bends and his sense of Time is a little more 'Urban' than some of the Gypsys...

He has a little of that 'dangerous' quality you mentioned before ...

I wanted the Rhythm Section to come in
on his Chord Section...

They need to expand from the eighth note Chord Rhythm but this is a nice small step and Adrien is a very soulful Player ..
Also more Rhythmic variation in his lines..very nice...
Will check out more of him just as an enjoyable experience too.

You realize though for your Gypsy Style you could do 'Take Five' etc. but use the original 5/4 Swing Rhythm ( is that what it's called ?).

Would audiences eat that up if done well For a whole Set...Standards and Modern Jazz ...somewhat Gypsy Style Solos and Sounds but totally
Modern Jazz Rhythms and Harmonic Rhythms...on Acoustics.

**christianm77** · 08-07-2016, 05:59 PM

It has occurred to me... I think you might be right about that.

**Robertkoa** · 08-07-2016, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

It has occurred to me... I think you might be right about that.

Another thing is you could also do it quietly with just two Guitars and no Mic announcements as a Classy/Romantic backdrop for a Dinner Club...

Picture taking a beautiful woman to a Romantic Dinner...and there's soft Romantic Acoustic Jazz in the Background...some Brazilian...some Standards...Layla gone Jazz...lol..

And you are English ...right ?
Why isn't 'I'm a Man ' by Spencer Davis Group ' a Standard ?

Anyway Acoustic Guitars are very Romantic/ Sexy backdrops...

A sexy date right ?

Or if it's already a Music Type Club...punch up the Volume...use a Drummer etc.

destinytot · 08-07-2016, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Check out Adrien Moingard

Great stuff.

**Robertkoa** · 08-08-2016, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Thecytochromec

I practice mostly with my Gitane 250M and it's awesome. It turns heads everywhere you gig. Even people who don't know much about guitars ask, "What kind of guitar is that and why is the hole so small?" People always surprised in the versatility of volume and tone. I couldn't be happier... wait... I have a high fret on mine so I could be happier. But really, I love it.

When they ask why the Soundhole is so small...tell them it is to protect the Audience ...so the Soundwaves don't break Glass etc. ��

**drbhrb** · 08-08-2016, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Don't see the point of Stimers - why not get an archtop?

Still if you only have a Sel-mac and want to play bebop, a Stimer is a good shout.

The Gypsy scene has absolute reverence for anything Django did and he used a Stimer, that is why you still see them and modern versions of them. In my opinion they sound terrible - it puts the tone in a bad halfway point between selmer and electric. It was the best Django had to use at the time but I'm sure if he could have had a more amplified acoustic tone like we can now he would have!

**Frank67** · 08-08-2016, 05:38 PM

Agree 100.0% the Stimers sound horrible to me and the amps they used at the time even worse. Really not something I would ever aspire to.

**christianm77** · 08-08-2016, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Robertkoa

When they ask why the Soundhole is so small...tell them it is to protect the Audience ...so the Soundwaves don't break Glass etc. ��

It's because Gypsy jazz players play so many notes you need to introduce a bottleneck somewhere so that the whole thing doesn't clog up.

**entresz** · 08-08-2016, 07:15 PM

It's interesting how we all have different opinions... I personally LOVE the sound Django had with his Stimer pickup. But yeah, it sounded nothing like an acoustic guitar and I can see why that sound wouldn't appeal to everyone. The main thing I dislike is that the magnetic pickup makes your guitar more or less useless for gypsy rhythm playing.

**Stringswinger** · 08-09-2016, 02:07 AM

Django's brother, both of his sons and his grandson all played a 175. I think if he had lived longer, Django woud have played a 175 as well.

I have owned 3 Stimer pickups, an original, a dupont reissue and a Miller Reissue. The first two had string balance issues and were therfore useless to me. The Miller had gain issues. I use a Krivo pickup with my Duponts. I have tried, the bigtone, a couple of Schertler stick ons, A Mcintyre and a Schatten. None worked too well IMO.

**Frank67** · 08-09-2016, 04:52 AM

My Macaferri type guitar has a Bigtone. Alone it sounds, like any piezo, a bit harsh and lossong dynamics. I had some luck with a dpa gooseneck microphone that, I think, sounds good with that guitar. I am not sure how convenient this is for stage, but blending it with the piezo should work pretty well.

With archtops, I had no luck with the microphone, no volume and a lot of feedback. That is sad since I like the sound of a miced acoustic guitar a lot.

i have never heard about the type of pickup you have. Is it magnetic?

I had a recording with the dpa into my AER. Never mind the playing. It is better now, but still leaves a lot of things to be desired.

for me that Soundcloud link does not play. Maybe direct?

**christianm77** · 08-09-2016, 06:01 AM

DPAs are nice things.

A bit impractical for some live situations so I stick to my K&K, but I think if you play in a traditional gypsy line up in settings that aren't too loud, it's probably the best choice. The tone on the Soundcloud is really nice.

Anyway, a cellist I work with uses one, and there's very much a hard limit in terms of volume, although feedback rejection seems quite a bit better than cheaper mics.

**Frank67** · 08-09-2016, 06:10 AM

It is true, there is a quite hard limit in terms of volume that the dpa tolerates and it is not very loud. From the wrong angle, it happens before I hear the amplified tone louder than the natural tone on the guitar. I doubt that I would be brave enough to take it on stage (nor should I enter one given my very limited skills :-)).

i also tried a Schertler contact mic but did not like it at all. It also fed back like crazy and the tone was not nearly as nice and true to the guitar as the dpa.

Which K&K do you have? It is the flat one that goes under the bridge?

**christianm77** · 08-09-2016, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by FrankLearns

It is true, there is a quite hard limit in terms of volume that the dpa tolerates and it is not very loud. From the wrong angle, it happens before I hear the amplified tone louder than the natural tone on the guitar. I doubt that I would be brave enough to take it on stage (nor should I enter one given my very limited skills :-)).

i also tried a Schertler contact mic but did not like it at all. It also fed back like crazy and the tone was not nearly as nice and true to the guitar as the dpa.

Which K&K do you have? It is the flat one that goes under the bridge?

Yes the K&K Definity. It's works great, not many problems with feedback on gigs, and the sound isn't too bad for a piezo.

If I had a DPA, I would certainly want to run the K&K as well as a backup. Maybe a mixed signal?

**rsclosson** · 12-06-2016, 01:07 PM

Sorry to revive an old thread but I wanted to mention that since I got my Altamira M-O1, it is pretty much the only guitar I want to play. I have used it on all kinds of gigs including chord melody solo work and rhythm backing for a woodwind guy I work with.

While not a "traditional" sound for Jazz, I get compliments on my tone and people love the look of the guitar. It is very comfortable to play and always sounds great.

I recently got a super deal on a Cigano GJ-15 and plan to try it out the same way.

**SierraTango** · 12-06-2016, 02:17 PM

As I recently posted I had a major event take place in the GJG department. Went from a Manouche Latcho Drom Djangology to a Dupont MC 30-14. Let me tell you it was worth every dollar spent.
We had two engagements over last weekend, and I brought both the Benedetto and the Dupont. As you can imagine this time of the year we are expected to play Christmas music. Not the whole gig, but have to sprinkle some in. Did about half the sets with the Dupont, we swung the trad Christmas rep with it. For material like "A Child is Born" I used the Bene; the ballads work better for us with that guitar.

The Dupont really shines on songs like "Marie", "See You in My Dreams" "Avalon" "Nuages" as you can imagine. I have no delusions on being a Gonzalo or Birelli. It just sounds so wonderful.

And yes, I used the Bigtone plugged into the Unico, which was DI'd into the house PA. The sound guy had a mic on it too. I just used a small amount of Bigtone most of it came off the mic. Worked for me.

**christianm77** · 12-06-2016, 02:17 PM

What pickup are you using rcslosson?

**rsclosson** · 12-06-2016, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

What pickup are you using rcslosson?

Amazon.com: Lace USA Ultra Slim Acoustic: Musical Instruments

Worked real well. Very transparent sound. I stuck it on the guitar with poster putty and it stayed for the entire gig(s). I am trying to find a way to attach a clip so I can stop using the putty.

**Stringswinger** · 12-06-2016, 04:09 PM

While I greatly prefer an archtop to a Gypsy guitar, I have used a Gypsy guitar for entire gigs doing straight ahead jazz. One can pretty much play any kind of music on any kind of guitar (assuming one has a decent skill set). I often do a solo jazz guitar gig with a Fender Strat. If the guitar inspires your playing it is all good.....