Freddie green guitar sound on a budget? Suggestions / advice

[AndrewPat]

Hi guys I play every week in a big band. We play a range of stuff but I'm looking for a cheap guitar which will give me that acoustic Freddie green cutting sound. Any suggestions on what to look for - body size? Action height being high? Must be able to be electric too. Under a £1000 preferably

[nopedals]

used eastman or new loar or spend more

carved spruce top and biggest body you can find

[SierraTango]

Gretsch G400 Synchromatic Jazz Archtop

I had one of these that worked well in Big Band setting with a "Monkey Stick" De Armond. These were built in Japan and the construction/workmanship was excellent. I think they were built in the mid-90's into the early 2000's.
You are obviously in the UK and this one is in Orange County, CA (Corona-home of Fender!), so not convenient, however maybe you could find one around you-although I don't think many were made.
It had the Freddy "Chunk" big time!

[vinlander]

regarding action ...well

[neatomic]

good info on freddie g's gear & setup-

Guitar Selection and Set Up for the Freddie Green Sound

says freddie used phosphor bronze strings..but phosphor bronze didn't hit till 1970's...freddie must have used 80/20 bronze's...rounds..(ala d'angelico) ...heavy! 14-60

cheers

[hotpepper01]

I play also weekly in a bigband. Any 16 or 17" full acoustic with a DeArmond Monkey Stick will give you a reasonable to good "four to a bar" acoustic rythm sound. Play two or three note shell chords. But, when you try to make a nice warm jazzy solo guitar sound with the same guitar, that becomes a sort of a problem. The other way around, when using a nice guitar with a good solo jazz tone, it is difficult to get a good rythm sound. I have not yet found a way to get both sounds out of 1 set up and easy switching. It seems it is allways a compromize. I use L5, ES175, Epi Emperor Regent, Acoustic L4 with a DeArmond. None of them do both sound types very good. The Emperor and the L4 sound very acousticly, but lack the warm jazz Wes like tone. L5 and 175 are great guitars but do not have a acoustic dominant sound rythm wise. And don't get me wrong. All are just awesome guitars.

Don't forget, modern bigbands are way louder than the Basie band was. Freddie never used an amp, his sound was allways miked. So, fully acoustic. My bass player plays loud, and I can hear and feel the other instruments in the guitar body as well and feedback is allways a danger.

[ronjazz]

I found that I could use a modeling processor, usually a Digitech 50 or 55, inexpensive simple box, to create two very different sounds from the same instrument, even a semi-hollow, by using the "acoustic" setting and finding an "acoustic" model in the box that worked. One can also tweak fairly well for a warmth, fat jazz sound or something more modern or even a more classic Christian sound with a little work. I have about 6 sounds that range from acoustic flat-top to arch-top, then warm jazz tone, then brighter tone for cutting through a mix or playing a blues or rock-oriented chart, and an overdriven sound for playing with big bands that do, say, Steely Dan charts. I actually play nearly all my gigs with a Godin Multiac Nylon 7-string, and it reacts very well to the multi-processor. And, of course, it sounds great as a straight big-band rhythm guitar when the processing is bypassed and the straight signal is heard.

[neatomic]

ps- might want to look into a new epi masterbilt..17" body, solid spruce top and fits your budget




cheers

[pingu]

ps- might want to look into a new epi masterbilt..17" body, solid spruce top and fits your budget




cheers

That sure pretty , I'd like to put a vv floating cc on it

[entresz]

+1 on the G400 but don't expect earth shattering volume from it. It's X braced and a pressed (not carved) solid top. It sounds real nice though. I play in a big band with mine -- depending on the gig, if a more acoustic sound is desired, I mic it up and use a little acoustic amp as a monitor. Mine has a floating CC pickup that give it a very authentic 40's/50's electric sound.

It's a real nice guitar.

[AndrewPat]

Thanks for all the great replies :-)

[pingu]

Also
Aria fa71 fa77 or fa Broadway
Are quite loud acoustically and
All sound good plugged in
When you need that

All good bang for the buck

All discontinued now I believe
But can be had used quite cheap

[jjang1993]

deleted

[oldane]

If you really want to go budget just get a flat top acoustic preferably with a solid top and a big deep jumbo body, get a graph tech replacement saddle and nut and set the action as high as possible with the thickest strings you can find (14-60 at the very least).

Medium to heavy strings and a high action is the way to go if lots of volume and projection is needed. How high the action should be will depend on your fingers. I use a high action on my 4-to-the-bar guitar but have strength enough for even higher action - but then my callouses on the finger tips develops into painful callosities like the ones poeople can have on their feet. Thus I can only have a certain max action (around 4mm) if I am to play for a longer time. I think it's individual. Obviously, Freddie Green didn't have that kind of problem.

Regarding using a flattop with a high action: Since the bridge position is fixed on a flattop, there may be intonation problems higher up the neck (playing sharp) if a high action is set. An archtop is much better in this regard as the bridge is floating and can be moved back and forth as needed. Also the tone of an archtop is more midrangy and thus better suited for that traditional big band rhythm guiitar sound.

When choosing a guitar for rhythm, don't choose it for it's mellow and sweet tone. Chances are, it won't project enough. Choose one with "bite and bark". The old Epiphones and Strombergs were famous for that tone - not always sweet but they projected well. Freddie Green started out as a banjo player and the Stromberg he used in the 1940s and 1950s often sounded quite metallic and even harsh but it was heard. BTW, some players - Barry Galbraith for one - found that the 17" Strombergs projected better than the 19" instruments which tended to be more bass heavy.

A clip showing Freddie Greens monstrous action (one doesn't need going that high). It was shot less than a month before he died, so don't say that older people can't play with a physically challenging setup:

Travlin Light-Diane Schuur&Freddie Green - Dailymotion動画

[entresz]

That's interesting re the 19'' stromberg vs the 17'' -- I guess it's a bit like amp speakers. I find 10'' and 12'' project really nicely, but 15''s can get a bit lost in the mix. I guess guitar soundboards operate in a similar way.

[campusfive]

Um, hey, as the person who probably spends more time playing Freddie Green around here than anybody else, I'd love to offer some very specific opinions.

BUY A LOAR - Try to get a LH-600 at all possible, but even an LH-300 is going to better than almost anything else under a grand. If you can find a used Eastman NONCUTAWAY 805 or 810, even better.

Anything else is NOT an true acoustic archtop. A pressed top like a Gretsch or the new Epiphones is just NOT the same. I owned two Gretsch G400's, three Eastman archtops, and now a 1932 L-5, a 1932 Epi Deluxe, and a 1935 L-12.

When I travel and have to borrow a guitar, which hasn't happened since I got my Deluxe, I usually use a Loar LH-600. I've played any number of them, and even 300's, 600's and 700's, and they are BY FAR the only REAL acoustic archtop option. Eastman 805 or 810 would also be a good choice, though it's a nicer guitar and might be less punchy.

Just get it set up with bronze .12's perhaps better .13's, and with high enough action that you are putting enough pressure on the top to drive it. However, you need not have unbearably high action.

Also, note that I have not mentioned anything about a magnetic pickup. PLEASE DON'T DO IT. PLEASE.

[jads57]

Well here goes I saw in a Vintage Guitar interview article that Dennis Budimer used an Ovation Flat Top for most of his record dates requiring an acoustic archtop. I also saw a video of Natalie Cole and ? playing an Ovation as well for Paper Moon or Orange Colored Sky. These are big time studio guys from L.A. back in the day and they probably know what works!

[campusfive]

I don't know that studio legend Dennis Budimir is the very best exponent of Freddie Green-style rhythm guitar, but YMMV.

I missed the OP's request that it be able to be electric. So, to that point, buy a reissue DeArmond 1100 for it, or even better get an original DeArmond guitar mic. Trust me, though, find a way to play rhythm acoustically - mic'd if need be, because it's almost impossible to get proper timbre, time-feel and natural decay with an electric guitar.

I use a clip on lavalier mic, and it's fantastic. Even the cheaper AT Pro35 does a wonderful job.

[joaopaz]

The Loar LH-700.
http://www.theloar.com/products/arch...stic-lh-700-vs

You'll see a lot of nasty reviews on YT about The Loar guitars - actually, that is why I ended up buying my 1st one

I have a couple and love them both; for the price they're hard to beat. Sure you'll find a couple of things that could be done better... but on the other hand these guitars have something special, a bit undefined.. lots of character and usually a great acoustic sound! You play them and they talk to you.

So I bought the LH-700 and added a pickguard L5-style with a floating Benedetto pickup. Now it sounds amazing both as acoustic and electric. I did have to find a skilled luthier for the job, to match properly the angle of the pickguard to acommodate the Benedetto - and it still is lying on the body of the guitar. Perhaps with a small floating pickup could be done diferently.

It's an amazing, beautiful guitar, ... and also a feedback beast if you leave it unattained

[campusfive]

Here's an example of me playing a borrowed Loar LH-600 while leading an All-Star version version of my big band.
Despite the bass being a bit too high in the mix, you can hear the D and G string cutting through.

Or here's another example where you can clearly hear the guitar cutting through at the perfect frequencies for the style.

Both videos had a clip-on lavalier style mic on the Loar.

[mr. beaumont]

I don't know that studio legend Dennis Budimir is the very best exponent of Freddie Green-style rhythm guitar, but YMMV.
.

Dennis studied Freddie's style pretty extensively, and is well respected as someone who can pull it off.

That said, I don't think I'd show up at a big band gig with my Ovation

Agreed that the Loar is a great choice. I had one and sold it, the V neck was a bit too much for me, but I was trying to play it as a "regular" guitar. If I had decided to transform it into a "rhythm only" machine, it would have been just perfect.

[rabbit]

Mr. Stout, I like your work!

[joaopaz]

Hope this works... my LH-700 plus pickguard and floating Benedetto.

Enviado do meu ALE-L21 através de Tapatalk

[sgosnell]

Jonathon, I didn't know Gordon Au was in your orchestra. Was this a one-time gig for him, or is he steady?

[joaopaz]

Here's an example of me playing a borrowed Loar LH-600 while leading an All-Star version version of my big band.
Despite the bass being a bit too high in the mix, you can hear the D and G string cutting through.

Or here's another example where you can clearly hear the guitar cutting through at the perfect frequencies for the style.

Both videos had a clip-on lavalier style mic on the Loar.

Loved both tracks, great relaxed groove ... and the crowd dancing is awsome