Gibson L-5 Top Thickness

[jorgemg1984]

Does anyone here know the exact thickness of modern L5s or other Gibson archtops? I'm having a custom archtop done and I like the idea of having a Gibson like-top - quite thick which removes acoustic propieties but enhances the amplified sound a lot, which is what matters to me.

Thanks!

[icr]

I'm having a custom archtop done ...

How could an archtop maker not know how thick to make the top? That is like 90% of the equation.

[jorgemg1984]

He knows - but top thickness can vary a lot.

Anyway, I just wanted to know if someone knows that value, Google has not helped so far.

[Dennis D]

I like the idea of having a Gibson like-top - quite thick which removes acoustic propieties but enhances the amplified sound a lot, which is what matters to me.

I really appreciate ( and envy ) your having one built your way, so that you get what you're after.

I guess my question is why oh why would you want to remove the acoustic properties ? I'm thinking if you're after amplified properties only, that's easily done, and maybe for a lot less money than having an archtop built.

Gibson's current thinking seems to be there isn't much unamplified playing going on anymore, so their acoustic only archtops are the 'CES' variety without pickups.......meaning, while they have the Gibson sound, they're not very loud at all....(( MHO, of course ))

......so, if you weren't too worried about acoustic properties, ask your builder to choose a thicker-the-better wood that's easy to source....I can't see paying a premium for a thick piece of a premium spruce top, when you really don't want to hear it anyway, 'til it's plugged in ......

or am I missing something ??.....

...but good luck with the build !

[lawson-stone]

I really appreciate ( and envy ) your having one built your way, so that you get what you're after.

I guess my question is why oh why would you want to remove the acoustic properties ? I'm thinking if you're after amplified properties only, that's easily done, and maybe for a lot less money than having an archtop built.

Gibson's current thinking seems to be there isn't much unamplified playing going on anymore, so their acoustic only archtops are the 'CES' variety without pickups.......meaning, while they have the Gibson sound, they're not very loud at all....(( MHO, of course ))

......so, if you weren't too worried about acoustic properties, ask your builder to choose a thicker-the-better wood that's easy to source....I can't see paying a premium for a thick piece of a premium spruce top, when you really don't want to hear it anyway, 'til it's plugged in ......

or am I missing something ??.....

...but good luck with the build !

I think he said what he wants: he wants it to be like a contemporary L5ces. We don't all want the "acoustic" property as much as others, and there is a very great love out here for that heavier Gibson feel and sound. So maybe he's got a custom luthier doing it because there are some other aspects he wants different, but he'd like the top to match the contemporary L5ces top?

[jorgemg1984]

Lawson got it right, I'm having it custom build for several reasons - it's going to be my signature model, I'm friends wth the luthier and we've meaning to do it for a long time, I want lots of custom options, etc..

I don't mind having acoustic proprieties but my focus is to have the best amplified sound possible and avoiding high feedback. I always play plugged and at least for now I play for a living, so having a "feedback like crazy" guitar is not an option. To sum up: if I can have both, great acoustic and great amplified sound, excellent. If I have to choose one, it will be amplified for sure.

I asked about the Gibson tops because Gibsons have a great amplified sound... too many boutique archtops don't sound good amplified because luthiers built them with an amazing acoustic sound and in the end just put a pickup there... I wand to avoid that and I believe the reason why Gibsons sound so good amplified is thick tops.

So, anyone knows the value?

[wintermoon]

well, they're all going to be different if they're actually tuning them.
I don't have any new ones but my old ones vary, some by quite a bit.
I don't think they'll be the same thickness in the center compared to the edges either.
maybe someone has a couple modern ones and can take a few measurements w/ a caliper.

[lawson-stone]

You can actually order the plans from Amazon for less than $15 US. Georgia Luthiery Supply also has a full set of plans. There are a couple of interesting features of the L5ces that are different from other archtops. One is of course that Gibson embraces the heavier build, but the other is the presence of a reinforcing block around the cutaway on the inside of the guitar. I am not sure the function of that, but I've not seen it on other archtop plans. See the low-res picture below from the Georgia Luthiery Supply site:

[SierraTango]

About 16 years ago I a commissioned a 17" 7 string from an outstanding builder Jim Mapson in Santa Ana, CA. Jim built some incredible instruments for the likes of Mundell Lowe, Ron Eschete, and Frank Potenza. Jim is no longer building as far as I know, however his website seems to still be up. I bring this up because he was experimenting with sound posts in Mundell's guitar and seemed to have success with the approach. I think there is some info on the website here:

James L. Mapson Guitars

Also, isn't it true that Mark Campellone builds some L-5's style instruments that kind of "out-do" the L-5? Every one of his guitars I've ever had the privilege of playing has been outstanding-maybe should contact him?

Just some thoughts...me I'm a happy camper with my Bob built Benedetto Cremona-I'm in the acoustic sound first with a floater second school. It's my working guitar-but I'm the first to admit it doesn't "work" for everything.
Good luck with the project!

[jorgemg1984]

Thanks for all the tips, Sierra.

Just to clarify some things - I'm located in Lisbon, Portugal and I don't have the money or the desire to get something like a Campeleone (maybe when I change my profession). My luthier will be the builder!

Also, I'm not looking for a super L5, just the specific top thickness where, apparently, is where Gibson gets it's great amplified sound. I'm looking to build an instrument that sounds great amplified, period. Too many boutique archtops sound great acoustically and so so amplified, to my ears. Although I have much respect for Benedetto, I have not yet heard a clip I liked - this is my own opinion of course, not a fact. Some people love that floater sounds with a PA type amp like an Acoustic Image, not me

[Ol' Fret]

>> ...I like the idea of having a Gibson like-top - quite thick which removes acoustic propieties but enhances the amplified sound a lot... <<

Sorry, but this is a vague and invalid conclusion, an urban myth in the (Gibson and G. related) archtop guitar world!
Before drawing such a conclusion you or your guitar maker would have to define what exact acoustic properties you are after.
If it would be for the mere maximal loudness and attack of the guitar, I'd say you may have a point here. But definitely not for other important acoustic properties of the archtop guitar, like the most even and balanced response throughout the entire register, the decay, overall power, projection, separation and clarity of tone, and some others.

Fine acoustic (carved) archtop guitars show a considerable graduation of the plate thickness, varying on the specific piece of wood used, and depending on the sonic properties the guitar maker or customer is after: how useful would be the simple callout of "the exact thickness" of the top?

[SierraTango]

Download the Mel Bay article off the website link I posted. Jim describes his approach to getting the amplified tone out of the guitar he built for Ron Eschete that they were chasing together-it's a interesting read. And I've personally thought Ron has some pretty outstanding tone since I first heard him back in the 80's. I don't think he plays the Mapson anymore, I think he is on a C.B. Hill guitar but could be incorrect about that.

I do enjoy the "Boutique" sound of my Benedetto through my Evans JE 200. However as I mentioned it doesn't work for every situation. I've owned a L-5 CES understand what you are saying very well-hard to beat that plugged into a Twin for the classic jazz tone. These days I rely on my Eastman John Pisano 880 for getting close to that area-carved top, built in pickup, plays great and zero feedback issues through my Evans-at what I call realistic volume levels. Any louder and I'm breaking out the Tele!

[Matt Cushman]

Along with plate thickness is the consideration of the stiffness of the plate and the bracing. It is difficult to find the answer as to the exact thickness of the top plate on an L5. The thickness of the top plate is going to vary between guitars made by Gibson or any other maker. You would have to measure a number of them and then calculate the average thickness. If someone had a Hacklinger gauge and a few Gibson's on hand, they could easily find the answer to this question.

[jorgemg1984]

Download the Mel Bay article off the website link I posted. Jim describes his approach to getting the amplified tone out of the guitar he built for Ron Eschete that they were chasing together-it's a interesting read. And I've personally thought Ron has some pretty outstanding tone since I first heard him back in the 80's. I don't think he plays the Mapson anymore, I think he is on a C.B. Hill guitar but could be incorrect about that.

I do enjoy the "Boutique" sound of my Benedetto through my Evans JE 200. However as I mentioned it doesn't work for every situation. I've owned a L-5 CES understand what you are saying very well-hard to beat that plugged into a Twin for the classic jazz tone. These days I rely on my Eastman John Pisano 880 for getting close to that area-carved top, built in pickup, plays great and zero feedback issues through my Evans-at what I call realistic volume levels. Any louder and I'm breaking out the Tele!

Could you please show me the link? I couldn't find it! Yeah that Gibson tone is unbeatable... but I understand people enjoy other guitars! I tried the solid body route and I always come back to archtops Thanks for the help!

[jorgemg1984]

Along with plate thickness is the consideration of the stiffness of the plate and the bracing. It is difficult to find the answer as to the exact thickness of the top plate on an L5. The thickness of the top plate is going to vary between guitars made by Gibson or any other maker. You would have to measure a number of them and then calculate the average thickness. If someone had a Hacklinger gauge and a few Gibson's on hand, they could easily find the answer to this question.

Thanks, Matt, I do understand a lot more things contribute to tone. It would be great if someone calculated that average

[SierraTango]

James L. Mapson Guitars

Enjoy.

[kkfan]

Could you please show me the link? I couldn't find it!

http://www.mapsonguitars.com/Mapson.doc

[Danny W.]

The thickness of the top at the f-holes of my L-5 Lee Rit is a bit under 1/8"--call it 3mm. I'm not sure what use this info is, since it tells nothing about how the top is carved.

Danny W.

[oldane]

Does anyone here know the exact thickness of modern L5s or other Gibson archtops? I'm having a custom archtop done and I like the idea of having a Gibson like-top - quite thick which removes acoustic propieties but enhances the amplified sound a lot, which is what matters to me.

Thanks!

With the L5, it's not just about top thickness. The L5CES also has reinforced bracing.

One European luthier who makes a carved top along the same lines is Stefan Sonntag. I know you are using your own luthier, but Sonntag makes pretty guitars, doesn't he.

Archtop Jazz Gitarre J17 Elektra von Stefan Sonntag

[gcb]

Jorge you are right, not only with regard to amplified sound, but in general. As Benedetto says: "A common mistake among inexperienced makers is to carve the top plate too thin."

Of course to have an actual measure of a top at different points could be a guide. But I guess the matter is not that simple as the body functions like a system producing certain sound.

Top and back plates are normally carved, graduated and tuned one in relation with the other. The recurve has also to do with the flexibility of the plates and then with responsiveness and sound.Bracing is also important. Also grain, even glue and the quality of the joints.

I don´t see an alternative to the process of tap tuning. That would be the best way your luthier could look for a more o less sustained tone. But then, as Benedetto says, "this is a learning process and not as easy as reading a ruler or caliper." "A Bb tap tone produced by one plate may be the optimum pitch for that particular tone wood, while a C may be optimum for another." "The entire carving procedure is audible." "The sound produced with each stroke of the plane is yet another way of monitoring the changing pitch of the plate." Etc.

The important thing to me would be that the luthier gets the tone you want in his/her head and try to reproduce it in the woods and other materials available to him/her.

For example, Benedetto starts the process with a rough spruce top plate with a uniform thickness of 3/8" and a back plate of 1/4."

Nice Project you have there, wish you good luck.

[jorgemg1984]

The thickness of the top at the f-holes of my L-5 Lee Rit is a bit under 1/8"--call it 3mm. I'm not sure what use this info is, since it tells nothing about how the top is carved.

Danny W.

3mm is precisely the value we (me and my luthier) had in mind.

[Matt Cushman]

One way of measuring the plates on an archtop instrument is to measure the amount of deflection to the plate when a known amount of pressure is applied at the bridge section of a top plate or at the center of a back plate. The measuring of a plates deflection or how much it flexes under a known force can be done with a device designed for the task. You can find more information on a plate flexing device in the gal magazine #76, where Don Mac Rostie demonstrates a flexer for the mandolin. I measure deflection on my own guitars. I measure the amount the plate flexes under a known weight. I have plans to refine my own flexing setup but so far this seems to work well for me. It is always useful to have more measurements. Here is a photo of a top plate flexing .005" under 3 lbs. of downforce.

[Matt Cushman]

The thickness at the F holes can be almost meaningless. The measurements that count most are through the center section and at the recurve area. The Benedetto plan calls for 1/8" thick at the F holes for both X braced and parallel braced models but the X braced model is carved much thicker overall to compensate for the weaker X bracing. Top plate thickness works in tandem with the bracing. The area near the F hole has little effect on strength because of the f hole itself.

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple thoughts for your consideration:

• If you can clearly articulate your playing goals for the instrument, the music you will be playing, the environment in which you will be playing, past "likes" and "dislikes" an experienced archtop luthier should be able to make you the guitar that you desire.
• As others have said, an archtop's acoustic and electric performance characteristics are a "sum of the parts" type of thing. Different spruce billets have divergent densities and cross-grain stiffness. The arch profile itself (in both directions) and plate thicknessing matter as does the bracing. Other elements such as mass in the neck block can also be influential, how the top and back plates interact and of course the choice of pickups as well.
• Your luthier will either have command over these or not. You should not be providing them with dimensions. This is a "factory" mindset that in fact is anathema to the custom luthiery process in my opinion. Building in this manner is why if you play 10 factory guitars you will find one or two that will stand out. Luthiers build to the player and adjust dimensions based on material properties and performance targets.

My $.02

[jorgemg1984]

Just to be clear - I'm looking ONLY for input of top thickness (specifically CES Gibson), actual numbers and the relationship between top thickness and amplified sound. I appreciate the concern but all the rest it's not really necessary.