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Hi guys -
long time lurker, first time poster here -
just bought a 60 watt amp with a 30 watt speaker. I play jazz only and guess what - the speaker breaks up too quickly. Why would you put a lower watt speaker in a higher watt amp? Because you want it to break up?
secondly - I really like evm12l speakers but they're all 200+ watts. Would it be ok to use one in this 60 watt amp? Basically I'm looking for maximum clean headroom. I have changed the tubes already and have an external cab to run it with. The external cab added body but not much volume.
Im sorry if these questions have been asked before, I've searched for answers here and elsewhere and haven't been able to find an answer to the 200 watt speaker question specifically. Thanks in advance.
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01-22-2017 10:14 AM
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The original owner or the manufactured did that for just the reasons you do not like. Crunch is the mainstream.
I love Eminence speakers and put a Legend in my Rivera amp and it sounds awesome on the clean channel for jazz playing. My amp is 50 watt with a 75 watt Eminence Legend speaker.
LEGEND 1218 is for you @ 150watts.
http://www.eminence.com/audio/2013/L...Jazz2_Tomo.mp3
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The need to match wattage so that speakers don't get blown - not using a 15-20 watt single speaker in a 40 watt 1x12 amp, for example - seems pretty obvious.
I don't see that logic extending to the higher wattage speaker in a lower wattage amp scenario. Perhaps it does, in certain cases. But to generalize that it's true ... can't go with that.
One of the best sounding amps I ever had was a 6L6 equipped, tube rectified Ampeg Gemini II with an Eminence Big Ben speaker. 225 watt speaker, 30 - 35 watt amp. Same deal with the pine 12+10 cab I use with a 35 watt Allen Encore head. Has two 75 watt speakers in it, a WGS G12C and a WGS G10C. Beautiful sounds. Who knows, perhaps these are isolated examples that don't disprove the rule. Doubtful. Speaker wattage to me doesn't predict how good a speaker does/doesn't sound or feel. As long as you don't blow it, all bets are off.
MD
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evm 12's are great speakers in any cab...super clean full sound..and with the low amp wattage they will stay even cleaner..if its the true sound of the guitar and amp you want, not the speaker adding its own sonic parameters...then go for it!
just make sure you match the speaker/amp impedence!
cheers
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Originally Posted by fartattack
I used an older 200 watt EVM12L in a series of amps, including a SF (1970) Princeton with an after-market MojoTone baffle. Sounded wonderful, only issue was the added weight: those things are boat-anchors!
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I've been thinking of an Eminence Deltalite II to get an EV'ish sound w/o the weight. The Deltalite II 2512 is only 5 lbs.
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Thanks for all of your replies, guys.
Do any of you have any ideas about how much more headroom I could expect? Of course not measuring in decibels, but just an overall percentage.
Also I should apologize for my handle - I never expected to post! I'd forgotten what I had named myself.....
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That would depend on the amp, old speaker and new speaker.
What is the current amp model and speaker model?
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Mesa Mark ii b 60 watt reverb eq
vintage 30
Ps - max twang is an excellent handle
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aha..the vintage 30 actually has a 60 watt power rating..so its fine for that amp (power wise)...its also highly efficient (100db)..so you can get it loud and clean with minimum watts...its when you add the volume that it'll start to crunch
the evm 12 will stay clean even as you turn the amp volume up.....so it depends on volume..the louder you play, the more the evm will shine for cleans
cheers
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Can't really see the reasoning behind an amp/spkr combo where the the spkr can't handle the output power of the amp. Usually distortion is created by over-driving the electronics of the the amp, not by blowing the spkr. A higher wattage spkr (that doesn't have a lower impedance than the amp driving it is rated for) won't create any problems.
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A Boogie Mark IIB is the best amp ever made!!!!!!!!!!! The IIB has that fat, full & especially punchy singing overdrive as it doesn't have the dreadful extra gain of the IIC+ (the IIC+ added another gain stage for all the metal heads, but it took away some of the punch and edginess for fusion). I have 2 MKIIB heads - a Simul-Class and a HunRevEQ. I had a IIB combo w/ an EV in cream w/ a wicker front in the 80's - 90's, I miss that amp (I prefer a 60 watt or 100 watt over a Simul-Class Boogie)!
Some speakers are designed to breakup earlier than others, even others of the same power rating. As Neatomic said: The EV will stay clean, clean, clean at higher volumes. The EV is also very, very heavy and has extended lows and highs compared to many guitar speakers.
An EV style speaker will make that amp a completely different beast - big BOLD cleans and fat punchy drive. Boogies have a lot of mids (mids are boosted to tune the distortion) and the V30 also has a lot of mids, depending on the type of music you play the amp may really open up.
The EV12L is still made and a great speaker. Quilter uses the Celestion BN12-300s with a neodymium magnet in the Micropro HD to get an EV like sound, the Celestion is almost 10 lbs lighter than an EV. Warehouse Guitar Speakers has an EV inspired speaker designed for guitar and there are also a couple Emminence that would clean things up too.Last edited by MaxTwang; 01-22-2017 at 09:11 PM.
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Thanks guys! You've all been very helpful.
and MaxTwang - I'm in your club. I also have a IIC+ a IV and a V. (and three other amps - guess i've gotta sell some stuff!) I like them all for different things - but my favorite is the clean channel on the iiC+. People never talk about the clean channel on these amps - i guess because they're so famous for their distortion - but the clean channel is the boldest, bubbliest, articulated and cleanest channel I have ever played. EVM12L in that one btw.
I had them all plugged in (and had the extention cab out too) and the C made the mark IV seem so lame.... I guess my tastes kinda move around. I went on a tube odyssey (1500 on tubes over 6 months) and guess what I decided I liked best? JJ"s! Haha
Thanks for the tips guys, gonna try to find a 12L locally this week. Unless anyone has one to sell me? Chicagoland!?
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Haha love the name!! In fact that's the only reason I clicked on this thread!! Originally Posted by fartattack
I have an ev12L speaker it's great as you already know. The only drawbacks are 1) weight, and 2) I put mine in a ported theile cabinet and it made it too boomy. I assume you are putting it in an open back combo? That's how I originally had mine and it was perfect. But then I got a head configuration and purchased a "Boogafunk" Theile cab which is a great cabinet but the low end due to the port is too much. It is great, however, when rocking out!
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If the speaker is breaking up too quickly, but it actually has the right wattage ...
Are you sure it's the speaker?
I have a Boogie Mark III. It's a great sounding amp played clean for jazz and will get Santana's tone if you want.
But, it's a complicated beast to dial in. It's very sensitive to the input volume control and all the tone controls. If you want, say, a touch more treble in the midst of a gig, you may have to adjust every knob on the amp.
Once it's dialed in, it's great.
With all that circuitry and gain and assuming your amp has any similarities to mine, maybe try changing the gain structure and see if you can eliminate the problem that way? Maybe switch the tubes around or try some known to be good and make sure it's not a tube?
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Watts ain't watts in an amp, but watts ARE watts in speakers.
I doubt anyone would dispute that a mangy 120 watt solid state line 6 Spyder would not be as loud as a Fender 120 watt Super Twin? Or a 25 watt SS Fender Champion 110 would be as anywhere NEAR as loud as a 30 watt tube Marshall JTM30.
So it's reasonable that lower wattage speakers would work in the former SS cases but not the latter tube models.
For me I always install over rated wattage speakers in any amp because:
I don't push an amp, I don't need speaker breakup, and I like speaker reliability over blown cones.
There's nothing wrong with putting a higher wattage rated speaker in any given wattage rated amp, even a Marshall stack at 100 watts has 8 speakers rated well over the amp power out put.
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[QUOTE=fartattack;733765]
Thanks for the tips guys, gonna try to find a 12L locally this week. Unless anyone has one to sell me? Chicagoland!?[/QUOTE]
Also an EV12L fan. Have one in a 1 x 12, 150 watt tube beast. 68 lbs., but boy does it sound good.
The EV's were manufactured somewhere in the upper Midwest. Every time I visit the Detroit area, I scan around for used gear. There seem to be a fair number of them in the Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago corridor. Keep an eye on Craigslist.Last edited by goldenwave77; 01-24-2017 at 08:20 AM.
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Yes, new tubes. This is my 4th boogie Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
i am familiar with dialing them in. I hit them hard and play with loud @ss drummers.
I think my real issue is that I'm just used to 85-100 watt cleans and this amp just doesn't do that. I'll swap the speaker and then see whats up. Thxxxxxx
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UPDATE -
I got the EVM12L and put installed it. There is not a significant difference, but it is mildly better than it was before. Not sure it's worth the 30 lb weight difference tho......
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As mentioned, the V30 is 60 watts. You won't gain any headroom by installing a higher wattage speaker. Only one with higher sensitivity. I'm sure it's not the speaker that was breaking up. If you had the master vol on full and still got breakup, you probably need a more powerful amp (or sensitive speaker). Jazzy clean-clean needs a lot of power
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Hi Runepune - you have reminded me why i stay off of internet forums. Everybody is an expert (or for sure knows more than me) and also hasn't read the thread throughly enough to make at least a well-informed insulting/condescending comment.
We agree that the V30 is 60 watts. I also mentioned that i know how to dial in amps - i have never had the master on 10 on any amp i own. (Isn't this a jazz specific forum??) Does anyone expect to get good performance out of their amp if ANY of the knobs are on 10?
I also mentioned this amp is 60 watts - plenty of watts to be clean-clean at a decent volume. Twins are 85 watts. Without starting a who-can-figure-out-math-the-best i'm sure we can also agree that 60 watts are close to 85 watts. This amp had nowhere near the volume of a twin, and yes i know a twin has two speakers.
Also - the amp is louder. Not a significant amount, but it is. So I'm sure you could have some ideas about why it could be perceived as louder using some convoluted bullsh!t but let me tell you - it's louder. And I checked, and the sensitivities are the same.
Sooooo..................
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Insulting? I'm saying that a higher wattage speaker won't help much. Higher sensitivity will. Yes, the new speaker may very well be slightly louder, but frequency response and sensitivity is likely not identical. You may take that as convoluted bullsh!t if you want. Originally Posted by fartattack
Hi Runepune - you have reminded me why i stay off of internet forums. Everybody is an expert (or for sure knows more than me) and also hasn't read the thread throughly enough to make at least a well-informed insulting/condescending comment.
We agree that the V30 is 60 watts. I also mentioned that i know how to dial in amps - i have never had the master on 10 on any amp i own. (Isn't this a jazz specific forum??) Does anyone expect to get good performance out of their amp if ANY of the knobs are on 10?
I also mentioned this amp is 60 watts - plenty of watts to be clean-clean at a decent volume. Twins are 85 watts. Without starting a who-can-figure-out-math-the-best i'm sure we can also agree that 60 watts are close to 85 watts. This amp had nowhere near the volume of a twin, and yes i know a twin has two speakers.
Also - the amp is louder. Not a significant amount, but it is. So I'm sure you could have some ideas about why it could be perceived as louder using some convoluted bullsh!t but let me tell you - it's louder. And I checked, and the sensitivities are the same.
Sooooo..................
For highest clean headroom I'd likely have to max that master volume, yes.i have never had the master on 10 on any amp i own. (Isn't this a jazz specific forum??) Does anyone expect to get good performance out of their amp if ANY of the knobs are on 10?Last edited by Runepune; 02-09-2017 at 12:05 AM.
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OK, we accept your resignation. Originally Posted by fartattack
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This is just wrong man ! Originally Posted by fartattack
You asked for advice ... you got (good) advice
Then you say this ...
WTF ?
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This seems like good advice to me and not impolite. Not sure why anyone would consider it condescending. Originally Posted by Runepune
As mentioned, the V30 is 60 watts. You won't gain any headroom by installing a higher wattage speaker. Only one with higher sensitivity. I'm sure it's not the speaker that was breaking up. If you had the master vol on full and still got breakup, you probably need a more powerful amp (or sensitive speaker). Jazzy clean-clean needs a lot of power
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