Cheap vs Expensive Jazz Guitars

[EriktK]

I play jazz guitar for over 25 years, owned over 40 jazz guitars and tested more then 100. I never really knew why well built, often more expensive guitars are worth the money, 'till I played them.
I share this with you because there is so much nonsense on guitars on the internet. Please read everything I write as being: From my perspective and IMO. Buying tips below.

Cheap (often Chinese) guitar manufacturers cut corners in the quality of materials, construction and fit&finish. Therefore almost every cheaper jazz guitar IMO needs work on the frets, setup, nut, intonation and often replacement of hardware. You can make a OK gigging guitar from a cheap jazzbox. Still it will never be 'really good' IMO. Read some PRS interviews on 'rule of tone' to understand about extraction of sound by choice of materials and construction.

The initial electric sound with a good pickup can be just as good on both guitars. But some things will NOT be there and an experienced player will notice the difference.

- Full, round and rich (lively) acoustic tone VS thin, harsh ping and dead tone on cheap guitars
- Clear notes all over the neck VS a lot of dead notes that die out quickly
- Harmonics and even sustain in every note VS dead, plain notes with random sustain
- Highly responsive and dynamic VS plain 'plong, plong'

Good materials for a good tone:
- One piece of hard, dense wood for the neck VS porous grain, softer woods with glued on heal and headstock
- Neck block IN the guitar body: One piece of hard, dense wood VS soft multiply (no good transfer of vibrations from neck to body and vise versa)
- Hard, dense woods for the body VS fast grown porous woods on cheap guitars
- Good hardware and pickups VS cheap metal and woods
- Hard, hard nut that is set up just right VS sloppy plastic, high nut
- Solidly built tuners and bridge that fit very tight to the headstock and body

Some thoughts:
- Why buy a cheap guitar at all? Do you need to think "I got it for a bargain" every time you start playing?
- Why spend a lot of money on a lot of cheap guitars over 5-10 years and never be really happy with any? Why not save money for 2 years and buy ONLY ONE really good instrument right away? (I wish I had).
- How much time goes into research, travel to music shops, change hardware, etc. VS practicing?
- Switching guitars all the time: You'll never automate your left and right hand technique for 100%. Different necks and string spacing/ string heights, make you adjust all the time.

Some guitars I owned: Jazz guitars Erik te Kamp - YouTube

Buying tips:
- Most important: Don't buy with your eyes or by listening to video's. You got to play it yourself. If you play some guitars in a store and no guitar really stands out, chance's are, they are all not very good. A great instrument will 'pop out' to you immediately!
- 80's made in Japan archtops are often very good guitars. Great materials, built quality and hardware. Less popular models, are between $1000,00-$2000,00 (Like my best, best laminated archtop ever, a 1989 AF200). Also some 90's MIJ Ibanez
- Little more expensive 60's American archtops from the 'less popular' brands like Guild or Epiphone

[Lobomov]

Great article, but you forgot one thing.

If you can't feel or can't hear a difference, then the 'bargain' is a fine buy. You need a developed ear and some technical ability. There a great deal of players for whom a Squier actually is as good as a US made Fender. (I believe that the zillion posts on the internet claiming that cheap is as good as expensive are true for the person saying it)

[Steve Z]

Interesting points in OP. I've owned Benedetto's, Hertiage GE, etc... played Campellones, vintage L5s, etc... and enjoyed them a lot. I also really enjoy playing an $850 Ibanez.

I lost more money selling my Benedetto than a nice budget Ibanez cost new. There is value in affordable Jazz boxes, and many play and sound great. I'm an "at home" player so no need for show. There is a personal mojo of playing a dream guitar, but nice guitars can be affordable as well.

... that stated, I sure would like to someday own a sweet Vintage Gibson L5, just not a priority now.

[GNAPPI]

Hang on, you're saying that gits like Ibanez are...

"Cheap (often Chinese) guitar manufacturers cut corners in the quality of materials, construction and fit&finish. Therefore almost every cheaper jazz guitar IMO needs work on the frets, setup, nut, intonation and often replacement of hardware. "

I couldn't disagree with you more, as a matter of fact I CAN use your quote about Gibson without a doubt. Their quality has degraded while prices have risen.Your generalization of Asian / Chinese gits is without substance without a brand name to pin it on. If you mean to hold Gibson as a shining example of quality you are on shaky ground.

Where imports cannot as yet stand alongside them is long term durability because they are a recent phenomena. Even names like Gretsch and Gibson have had their own disastrous long term issues with neck re-setting, binding falling off, tops sinking, braces coming unglued, warping necks and more.

And your comment that buyers buy with their eyes for sure has merit, but why not??? With Gibson appointments are silly... F hole binding... $500, head binding... $500... select woods. $2000 and up...

Asian models come well appointed and other brands could learn a lot from them.

[BigMikeinNJ]

?I couldn't disagree with the OP more on Chinese made guitars. I've had quite a range of them and own many now. And I also have some of the finest American made guitars this site has ever seen. I also own very vintage American and Japanese made guitars and am old enough to remember when Japanese made guitars got pigeonholed the very same way you are dinging the Chinese made guitars.

This is MY OPINION and I disagree with your vague generalizations. Though I am happy for you that what you have is working for you.

BigMike

[John A.]

Why buy cheap? The obvious answer is because it's what you can afford, and you want a guitar. It strikes me as a bit detached from reality to deride people for not spending money they don't have.

Beyond that there are other good reasons. For instance, buying a cheap archtop with the idea of figuring out whether archtops are right for you; as another arrow in the quiver when you mainly play other instruments or music styles. Bargain archtops are so good (and have been for quite a while), that this is a very low risk/high reward approach.

John

[FuseHead]

Depends somewhat upon what type pieces you want to play......

When I was young and playing straight rock and / or straight blues.... Any cheapo was fine for the task. Once I really wanted to play "difficult" music? No way.... I remember sitting in with a decently progressive group at a bar when I was 17, I got to play the guys perfect, blamblastic good 1962 Strat and take several solos throughout the night... This thing was truly amazing. Afterwards, I had people that had seen me play scores of times before, come up and ask me how I progressed so fast in so little time. Well it was the Strat, nothing else had really changed. I mean I was even drunk as hell at the the time.
That Strat, you could just slop the strings with no real chord with a little muting and it was magic sounding, it played so well I could play twice as fast and it sounded perfectly clean.....Once I started playing serious fusion? The guitar needed to be able to take the sheer abuse night after night... I mean, in a few hours, I was completely wearing out a set of strings. Settled in on a pretty darn expensive PRS, was my main instrument for a long time until my financial situation forced me to sell it. I sold it at a big ol loss too as PRS guitars lost a lot of their value at some point and the fact I had to route out the wood at the back of the floating trem so I could pull the tremelo up far enough to satisfy those heated moments.

Not sure I had a point to this post, just additional thoughts on it all I suppose.

[Lobomov]

Why buy cheap? The obvious answer is because it's what you can afford, and you want a guitar. It strikes me as a bit detached from reality to deride people for not spending money they don't have.

John

I didn't post this earlier not wanting to derail the thread, but ....

Another thing worth being careful with is buying new. If you ever sell then you lose up to 50 percent. This makes it hard for me to buy new stuff unless it is something special. I might consider a ES275 as they are unique and chances of picking one up used are small.

But something like a us std fender new is very meh. On the other hand, if you do yourself the favour of getting to know the used marked then hopping on the carousel of trying out stuff and flipping it a little or no cost if it doesn't speak to you (expensive or cheap) is an option.


To the chinese is good comments:
Sure chinese guitars can be great .. but actually the ones I've tried that are really good aren't that cheap. I'm thinking of the Ibanez JSM10 and not to mention the new stunning looking GB40II that I'm looking forward to test driving (The LGB30 does really speak to me personally, but others might find value)

[Jim Soloway]

Too many points in the OP that I disagree with to bother going into details.

[GNAPPI]

Too many points in the OP that I disagree with to bother going into details.

Now WHY didn't I say that? :-)

[morroben]

The initial electric sound with a good pickup can be just as good on both guitars.

That's plenty for most of us. I've been doing repairs and builds (though not archtop builds) for a living most of my adult life. My experience has been quite different from the OP. There are plenty of well made, perfectly good, cheap Chinese guitars. And there are some vintage US made dogs.
I don't own any guitars that cost as much as the stuff I've built for others. I don't see much point in it. I have several mid-tier import guitars, and I prefer it that way. I'd rather have a pretty good archtop, pretty good strat, a couple of pretty good teles etc, rather than one high end guitar that doesn't actually sound any better.
If I was going to drop $5K on something tomorrow it would be an engine rebuild for my old Wagoneer, not an archtop.

[Thumpalumpacus]

My Chinese Ibanez blows my (lower-end) Gibson away in playability, fit and finish, and overall quality.

I grant that this experience doesn't necessarily translate to specifics about jazz guitars; but I reject the broad generalizations in the OP concerning country of origin.

[TOMMO]

I have some twenty+ guitars including high end Gibsons costing several thousands to less expensive ones to budget guitars, including a couple of MIC. Bought my first archtop, an Ibanez AFJ95 a year and a half ago and couldn't be happier with it: flawless build quality and superb playability and the sound / tone I was looking for from an archtop with a wooden bridge. I am in no situation to be able to compare it to more expensive archtops but I'm able to spot a fine guitar and this is one (as is a MIC PRS style solidbody that I hijacked when my daughter finally lost interest in pursuing the guitar).

[Longways to Go]

Another relevant issue is what guitars are available to you locally.

High-end archtops are rarely found in Kansas, so hands-on shopping isn't much of an option, and I am just not comfortable spending big $$ on a mail order guitar.

I enjoy owning a handful of less expensive guitars.
They don't need to be babied, tinkering on them can be fun, and they play remarkably well.
Maybe they don't deliver top-tier tone magic, but not 1/2 bad either . . .

[SierraTango]

Interesting points in OP. I've owned Benedetto's, Hertiage GE, etc... played Campellones, vintage L5s, etc... and enjoyed them a lot. I also really enjoy playing an $850 Ibanez.

I lost more money selling my Benedetto than a nice budget Ibanez cost new. There is value in affordable Jazz boxes, and many play and sound great. I'm an "at home" player so no need for show. There is a personal mojo of playing a dream guitar, but nice guitars can be affordable as well.

... that stated, I sure would like to someday own a sweet Vintage Gibson L5, just not a priority now.

I gig out with a Bob built 1990 Benedetto Cremona and a 2005 Eastman John Pisano 880. Obviously one end of price point to the other. They both have their applications-the floater on the Cremona works wonderfully for lower volume duo gigs, while the built in pickup 880 works better for the Big Band I play in.

The MIC 880 is a outstanding guitar. Fit, finish, playability are excellent. I done hundreds of gig with it, it's a workhorse.

However-the Benedetto is so far out of the universe fantastic. The 880 I feel like I own. The BC I'm the custodian of. It's a instrument for the ages.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've had my share of more expensive guitars, but my main instrument, currently, is the cheapest of the Yamaha Pacifica Strat copies. Mine has replacement tuners and a Lil 59 humbucker. This model is on CL daily for around $70, on average.

I use it because the neck is the slimmest in every dimension of any guitar I've played. Makes it easy on arthritic fingers.

One advantage of playing a cheapie, is that I don't worry about it much when I take it to a gig. It used to drive me crazy when I had to load-in in two trips, meaning an expensive instrument was out of my sight for a few minutes.

As far as sound goes, there are things I like about it and some things I don't, which is true of every guitar I've ever owned. The midrange is not as rich as my American made Fender, but the difference doesn't bother me. The high end is a little less plinky on the cheapie. But, I'd probably play the Fender if I could get used to the 9.5 radius, but I can't. The Yamaha, I think, is around 14.

On balance, I can get my sound out of it. Dead spots would bother me, but there aren't any that I notice.

[lammie200]

I recently picked up a Godin Jazz model. It is made in Canada and their top of the line model. I also own a Chinese made Hagstrom HJ-800. Also a top of the line model. I didn't a pay a fortune for either one, but there is something to be had by getting a maker's top of the line model. They are both excellent IMHO.

[drbhrb]

"dead, plain notes with random sustain"

Come on.... random sustain? As if two adjacent notes are going to have drastically different sustain?



I don't begrudge anyone who wants to spend a lot on a guitar. As guitarists we have it pretty cheap compared to most other instruments. But the number of players who "need" or even have a reasonable use for a super high end guitar is small. Home players certainly don't need it (though again, nothing wrong with it being a want). And the overwhelming number of jazz gigs out there are in environments where you wouldn't want a super valuable instrument sitting around and the subtle differences will be lost to the practicalities of live sound. For the Pat Methenys of the world who regularly get to play in well tuned concert venues, sure it may be warranted. I've gotten by on a handful of albums and hundreds of gigs with practical axes in the $500-2k range no problem.

To each their own.

[joaopaz]

The guitar solo starts at 2:28.
This is a well know case of a cheap guitar, by all accounts.
To me this is the dream tone.

So I "rest my case"

[mr. beaumont]

Man, Ulf sounds great there, doesn't he?

[joaopaz]

Man, Ulf sounds great there, doesn't he?

He does a lot of stuff I'm not particularly in to, but when he goes classic he's top on my book.
This is the solo I'd have love to play

[rpjazzguitar]

It's an Aria Pro II. My local GC has one for $129.

That's Ulf Wakenius.

There's youtube video of him playing a Benedetto.

There's also a video of him playing Bright Size Life with PM, where that Aria sounds fabulous -- way better than the Benedetto, but this video has him playing with reverb whereas the Benedetto video is a lesson, played dry.
So, the comparison is unfair. But the video with PM certainly proves that a cheap guitar worked for him on that day.

[joaopaz]

It's an Aria Pro II. My local GC has one for $129.

That's Ulf Wakenius.

There's youtube video of him playing a Benedetto.

There's also a video of him playing Bright Size Life with PM, where that Aria sounds fabulous -- way better than the Benedetto, but this video has him playing with reverb whereas the Benedetto video is a lesson, played dry.
So, the comparison is unfair. But the video with PM certainly proves that a cheap guitar worked for him on that day.

Know that video very well, it's amazing too!
So.... I'd rush to GC to grab that Aria

[KirkP]

The article would be much more useful if it eliminated pejoratives like "cheap" an "Chinese", and simply explained the factors that are important in selecting an excellent and "right for you" instrument.

[Jonathan0996]

Great article, but you forgot one thing.

If you can't feel or can't hear a difference, then the 'bargain' is a fine buy. You need a developed ear and some technical ability. There a great deal of players for whom a Squier actually is as good as a US made Fender. (I believe that the zillion posts on the internet claiming that cheap is as good as expensive are true for the person saying it)

Great point. I'll go one further:

If you can't get good tone on a cheap guitar you won't get great tone out of a high end guitar. Tone is mostly in the hands, so get that together first.

The right technique and feel will get you 90% of the way toward a great sound. A great guitar will give you the other 10%. Go for the 90% first and save a ton of money.