Speaker advice please 12" and 15"

[Mellow-G]

?Looking for less brightness with plenty of mellow warmth without a booming bass, any ideas? ES175 premium with a Classic 30 Peavey. I will use a separate speaker cab for the new speaker. My thoughts on the Fane A60 vs Cannabis Rex only attracted 1 reply so perhaps I am looking in the wrong direction. Is there something better, should I consider 15" or would it have a booming bass. Perhaps I just need to use a separate equaliser? Am I asking for or expecting too much from what I have and a speaker change is not the answer. Please tell it to me as it is, I will not be offended, I have played a lot of music in my long life but guitar is new to me and looking for that wonderful sound I listened to back in the fifties & sixties. The Jazz guitarists of those days made the notes melt with such warmth, some of that must have been from their gear? If 15" is a good idea please provide make and model as I don't know of any.
In anticipation of shared knowledge and guidance, thank you.

[Northenlights]

While providing more bass, a 15" won't nessecarily cut the high frequences. Basically, a 15" will sound deeper and fuller than a 12", with the ability to be just as clear in the top end. Getting a darker sound is more about the specific speaker model, not its diameter. That being said, I had the exact same problem that you describe with my Fender Deville 2x12, and that was cured with a single EVM 15L. The bass became much tighter, and most importantly the ice pick top went away. The EVM 15L is actually a pretty bright speaker, but in a way that sounds good when I want it bright, and it can be dialed away when I don't want it. After the speaker swap, I would say the the deville has become my favourite amp for clean tones, jazz included (although my least favourite to carry. It weighs a ton!).

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

A neo 15" can weigh less than a lot of 12". I'm curious about the Eminence EPS-15C

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

It weight less than the 12" C. Rex.

What strikes me as odd, though, is that they bill it for pedal steel guitars and those guys like chimey speakers, but its upper freq bound is around 2.9K, which doesn't sound chimey on paper.

[John A.]

While providing more bass, a 15" won't nessecarily cut the high frequences. Basically, a 15" will sound deeper and fuller than a 12", with the ability to be just as clear in the top end. Getting a darker sound is more about the specific speaker model, not its diameter. That being said, I had the exact same problem that you describe with my Fender Deville 2x12, and that was cured with a single EVM 15L. The bass became much tighter, and most importantly the ice pick top went away. The EVM 15L is actually a pretty bright speaker, but in a way that sounds good when I want it bright, and it can be dialed away when I don't want it. After the speaker swap, I would say the the deville has become my favourite amp for clean tones, jazz included (although my least favourite to carry. It weighs a ton!).

+1 on brightness being more a matter of the overall speaker design than the diameter. For instance, the classic JBL D130F is very bright, and can easily get you into icepick-in-the-ear territory. I would add that IME, the biggest impact of diameter is the way the sound projects into the sound field. For lack of better words, I'd say a 15 "blooms" further out and away from the amp than smaller speakers. With a 15, if you stand right next to it, the sound is very different from what your audience is hearing. This is true to an extent with all speakers, but IME more so with 15's than than 10's or 12's.

John

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

+1 on brightness being more a matter of the overall speaker design than the diameter. For instance, the classic JBL D130F is very bright, and can easily get you into icepick-in-the-ear territory. I would add that IME, the biggest impact of diameter is the way the sound projects into the sound field. For lack of better words, I'd say a 15 "blooms" further out and away from the amp than smaller speakers. With a 15, if you stand right next to it, the sound is very different from what your audience is hearing. This is true to an extent with all speakers, but IME more so with 15's than than 10's or 12's.

John

I've also heard that the bigger the speaker the more "beamy" it is in higher frequencies.

[Cavalier]

A neo 15" can weigh less than a lot of 12". I'm curious about the Eminence EPS-15C

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

It weight less than the 12" C. Rex.

What strikes me as odd, though, is that they bill it for pedal steel guitars and those guys like chimey speakers, but its upper freq bound is around 2.9K, which doesn't sound chimey on paper.

I'm using one of these in my silver face Twin and like it a lot. The bright can be dialed out or left in if you want upper end harmonics for acoustic etc... Versatile with a nice full sound.

I also am using a Deltalite II 2515 and find it a great option. Very flat with less highs and lows and a pound lighter.

Hard to complain about 8-9 pound speakers that can handle high power or sound as good at low levels. The tone doesn't change with volume.

These are accurate speakers that don't color the sound. For a tone change, speaker grit or low fi sound try something else. With these what you put in is what you get out. The EPS 15C is a 4 ohm speaker which comes in handy when replacing 2 12s. The 2515 is rated at 8 ohms.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

^^^ Interesting! Thanks.

[maggles55]

I've also heard that the bigger the speaker the more "beamy" it is in higher frequencies.

Technically this is true: The wider the radiating surface, the more of a "beaming" effect (off axis high frequencies cancel out more with increasing radius). However, I think that when guitar speakers are producing highs, only the very center of the speaker cone is vibrating. Regardless, I suspect you would be hard pressed to hear a difference in "beamy-ness" between a 12" and a 15".

I don't have much experience with 15" (although I have been tempted). Yes, a 15" should produce more bass, but I rarely find a 12" so lacking in bass that I need to go beyond maxing out the bass control. The C-Rex is a great jazz guitar speaker with a ton of bass (I always need to dial the bass back with this one, but I do have it in a large cab). I recommend it highly.

[999369]

This is one I like to use ( Smooth and full ) ALTEC 418 15" speaker

[KirkP]

Consider the Eminence Red White & Blues if you're looking for a fairly neutral frequency response in an open back cabinet. Like most guitar speakers it's got a boost in the upper octave on-axis, but most ears are off axis. The upper end might roll of a bit quicker than some other speakers, but it's not muffled. I liked it in my Twin Reverb to roll off some of the ice pick. I ended up pairing it with a somewhat brighter Celestion speaker and was happy with the combined result.
https://www.eminence.com/pdf/Red_White_and_Blues.pdf

[rpjazzguitar]

I would describe my objective for tone in a similar way -- warmth without boom.

My pet peeve for guitar in combos is guys playing an archtop on the middle four strings and sounding muddy.

So, I've been afraid of 15 inch speakers, thinking that they might give unwanted bass, but, really, I haven't tested it.

That said, I regularly use an amp with a 12" speaker (tube) and an amp with 2 10's (solid state). They don't sound the same, but I like them both. I think I get closer to the ideal with the 12" tube amp, but is that the tubes or the speaker?

Anyway, if there's a point to this post, it's that a guitar can make mud in a band, especially an archtop IMO, if you aren't really careful about the amount of bass frequencies. It may be worth thinking 10" as well as the other sizes. Also, in years of reading GP interviews, I can't recall a jazz player stating a preference for 15". Does anybody know of one?

[helios]

I would describe my objective for tone in a similar way -- warmth without boom.

My pet peeve for guitar in combos is guys playing an archtop on the middle four strings and sounding muddy.

So, I've been afraid of 15 inch speakers, thinking that they might give unwanted bass, but, really, I haven't tested it.

That said, I regularly use an amp with a 12" speaker (tube) and an amp with 2 10's (solid state). They don't sound the same, but I like them both. I think I get closer to the ideal with the 12" tube amp, but is that the tubes or the speaker?

Anyway, if there's a point to this post, it's that a guitar can make mud in a band, especially an archtop IMO, if you aren't really careful about the amount of bass frequencies. It may be worth thinking 10" as well as the other sizes. Also, in years of reading GP interviews, I can't recall a jazz player stating a preference for 15". Does anybody know of one?

I don't know that he stated a preference, but Wes did use a Standel Super Custom XV during a time in his career. The Rivera Jazz Suprema 1X15 pays (loose) homage to that concept:

[jads57]

Before modding your amp try out your amp head hooked up with different cabs open back,closed back both 12" & 15" as well as Neodynium,Ceramic,Alnico speakers. I was a big user of EV12L speakers until I got sick of heavy cabs. I have since moved on to Warehouse Guitar Speakers ET-90 12" (100 watts 8 ohms) for open back cabs and Jensen Neo Tornado 12" ( 100 watt 8 ohms) for closed back cabs. I would love to try Celestion Cream 90 watt 12" but too much $$$$ in the USA.

[ugarte]

Definitely check out the selection at WGS, I'm using the green beret 12" in a mojotone cabinet and it is a heck of a value.

[viccortes285]

?Looking for less brightness with plenty of mellow warmth without a booming bass, any ideas? ES175 premium with a Classic 30 Peavey. I will use a separate speaker cab for the new speaker. My thoughts on the Fane A60 vs Cannabis Rex only attracted 1 reply so perhaps I am looking in the wrong direction. Is there something better, should I consider 15" or would it have a booming bass. Perhaps I just need to use a separate equaliser? Am I asking for or expecting too much from what I have and a speaker change is not the answer. Please tell it to me as it is, I will not be offended, I have played a lot of music in my long life but guitar is new to me and looking for that wonderful sound I listened to back in the fifties & sixties. The Jazz guitarists of those days made the notes melt with such warmth, some of that must have been from their gear? If 15" is a good idea please provide make and model as I don't know of any.
In anticipation of shared knowledge and guidance, thank you.

Try some heavy wooden picks, they are mellow.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mad dog]

I've used lots of 15" speakers, mostly combos, also a few cabs. Hard to generalize. I usually hear not more or less bass, but a different type of high end, a "wider" sound somehow, hard to define. Longtime favorites there are Weber California ceramic with paper dome, Altec Lansing 418b, WGS G15C, Emi Big Ben.

Lately, the preference has shifted to 12" speakers, and multiple speakers. And I'm learning that everything depends on the cab itself. The same speaker can sound pretty radically different in different settings. Current favorites:

- WGS G12C and G10C in a pine 12+10 cab
- Eminence Heritage G12-65 in a Gries 20 combo
- Custom 16 ohm ceramic in a Pure 64 ported, closed cab

MD

[Mellow-G]

Thank you, good suggestion, I have some of these and gave them a try but have to confess to being a finger and thumb person.

[powerwagonjohn]

Don't discount a good old Jensen P15N, I find them a little inefficient with a nice warm tone but plenty of bite at the top end. I have a pair of mid-60's Jensen LMI 15" Vibrantos. They have big alnico magnets and are a bit clearer sounding than my old P15N. I have seen these Vibrantos sell for as little as $40.00 working condition. My speaker shop says it's no problem to re-cone them just in case. I think these are real hidden jems in the vintage speaker world.
Thanks john

[neatomic]

I don't know that he stated a preference, but Wes did use a Standel Super Custom XV during a time in his career. The Rivera Jazz Suprema 1X15 pays (loose) homage to that concept:

just for info sake...wes' standel was an all transistor amp...no tubes...it used a classic jbl d-130 (15") alnico speaker

to the op...in the uk?...look no further than your own!..hah..celestion alnico gold 12" ...super efficient with very deep, but not boomy, low end, hi-fi flat mids and clean chimey top......lets you control the timbre of your guitar with the tonepot...my fave current speaker line...otherwise i love the classics ie jbls, altecs, ev's etc

cheers

[Mellow-G]

Thank you Northern lights for your valued input, unfortunately the EVM15L appears no longer available and even if I could find a used one it is only 8 ohms, my amp has only 16 ohms available however I have found one 15" speaker in 16 ohms (most are 8) as recommended by someone else in this thread and also Jensen themselves. It is the P15N which on the Jensen sound test sounds pretty good with a tight bottom end, warm middle and upper. The magnet is Alnico. Other people have suggested that because of the amount of space required for sound projection of the 15" that I might not hear the full benefits in a home or even the small community halls that I would be in for the occasional charity gig, I mainly play at home . Other suggestions have said that for home use a 12 or even 10 inch can produce the right sound if properly cased which I will be looking into, perhaps a 7 or 10 band equaliser could also be a useful addition? I still believe a 15" will sound better but will only really know when tried.

[Mellow-G]

Thank you RPJAZZGUITAR for not letting me forget 12" and even suggesting I look at 10" which considering the sound projection information discussed by a couple of guys in this thread is a valid point that must be considered although I would have to make 10" a twin cab as they are only 8 ohms. The 10" Lil Buddy from Eminence and the Celestion Cream or G10 Gold all sound good especially the Lil Buddy. The 12" Rex is still not a right-off but having heard the 12" Hempdog, also from Eminence, I am gutted that these are not available in either 16 ohms or being supplied here in the England. The Hempdog even having to be a twin could seal the deal if I could buy them.

[Mellow-G]

Sincere thanks to all who have given time and valued information to this thread it has all been very helpful. In fact I could not have progressed without you, you are all a credit to the site.

My conclusions are that I will make a closed back cab that can be opened, I even have a couple of ports left over from a previous build so that the final speaker arrangement can be adjusted to suit and probably be better than a larger opening of the back. Making cabs is not a problem as B4 retirement I owned a boatyard and fitted out many new and used boats, I have also built a house, cab's no problem as the dimensions/calculations are available on the net.

Speakers if you have read my other replies is not so easy although I am swaying in favour of the Jensen P15N. Joint second is Twin Lil Buddy 10", Single C. Rex 12" or if I can get them twin 12" Hempdog. Third place goes to Celestion G12H75, G10 Gold or Cream.

[Valdez]

The Jensen P15N is to ice picky and harsh. I like the Weber 15A150B.
And for 12" the Celection Gold.

[Mellow-G]

Thanks for the P15N tip however I now have to confess that the headphones buried in the loft since recently moving house just had to be found. The sound samples of the speaker companies now sound so much better and it looks as though all of the 15" speakers I had been checking on now sound too boomy for my liking, not the answer I was hoping for. I have also been looking into dimensions for the cab which led me to someone who was having similar thoughts to me about the blue marvel in his Classic 30. He put the speaker into a closed back cab and found it to be pretty much what he was after. I will now make the cab and try the blue marvel before buying either a Hempdog or C.Rex. Jensens may also be worth another look, perhaps the P12N. If it all works out I may even make a new cabinet for the Classic 30, turning it into head only, either Oak or Mahogany with Cream cloth. Should look nice together and as I like the amp it will be worth it. The old cabinet can go into the loft for rehousing should I decide to sell it sometime later. Others will still like to use 15" but with what we have available in 12" it looks as though most players can find what they are looking for after a good search. I am sure it will not be long before we are all using 10" as they are also sounding so much better, Lil Buddy is a cracker. The new breed of jazz boys are also looking for a brighter sound so us oldies will no longer be around to keep mellow warmth alive.

[vernon]

I tried 12" and 15" speakers in pursuit of the warm mellow sound. Didn't work for me. I bought a closed back Raezer's Edge Stealth 10" and my sonic presuppositions got turned upside down! 10" and 8" for me now. RE 10... Redstone 8, and a Buscarino Chameleon 8". Too much good stuff!! I know you're starting with a Peavey 30 combo... but at least try playing through a closed back external 8" or 10" cabinet. For jazz archtop, it's the best I've found. YMMV.