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How do luthiers repair cracks? It is very possible that this crack was already there. When I got it I knew it had the small crack on the bridge side and the seller said the previous owner said it had been there for a long time and not spread. I don't know if this is true of course but I figured that I liked it enough that I would get it repaired if it spread at all and got to be under the bridge. It has spread maybe a millimeter over a year or so but that might have been from when it dropped in the case or over the long period of time, I don't know because I am just noticing it now. It is getting very close to the bridge but it was pretty close to begin with.
Last week I took off the pickguard and didn't notice a crack but today I did. I think that I just didn't notice it because looking down playing I don't see it but I was changing strings tonight and saw it. It appears to be spreading from the neck side screw of the bridge pickup. It might have already been there. My back was seriously out a few weeks ago and the guitar took a minor drop in the case on the front of the case - it is the original case and not as sturdy as I would like but I have not replaced it.
How do luthiers fix these cracks? I would like to know the process so that whenever and wherever I go I can ask how they do it and make sure that it is fixed properly. I have not kept the guitar humidified...I am really bad about that because I like my guitars out to look at them and because I play more seeing them and being able to pick them up off of the wall hangers. Do I need to have this fixed asap or should I keep an eye on it and see if it spreads? How much roughly would one expect to pay for this repair?
I also noticed some warping of the pickup rings. I think the pickguard was gassing out and I don't know if that would affect plastic or not, if they warp naturally over time or what. I don't mind but I am wondering if it is a problem for the guitar or if it is just cosmetic.
Thanks for any help. I am incredibly bummed out right now and I'm hoping that this is not a big deal. I do work on my own guitars except for fret work and have never had instruments with cracks so I don't even know where to be going for this...I know that ultimately it will probably be fine because I know from double bass that cracks happen and they get fixed and you can do repairs on instruments that are in pieces but still, it's been kind of a down day and seeing this now does not help. Lesson learned though that I need to look closely at my guitars more often for developing problems.
warped neck pickup ring
warped bridge pickup ring - it is hard to see but this angle is shot straight down
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03-14-2017 12:41 AM
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Given its location and apparent extent, it should not be a big deal to remove the pickup and cleat it from the opening; that is, it may not require removing the back to get to it. Just spitballin' here. I'm hoping the vastly more qualified folks we have here will chime in. Best of luck with this.
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I didn't even think of that - it is promising to think that the repairs might be able to be done through the pickup hole. I was considering taking off the pickup ring to see what it looks like under there but I didn't know if unscrewing it would stress the crack or not so I left it alone. The guitar sounds and plays great so if it were something that wasn't a concern I would just leave it as is but I am just concerned about something bad happening if I don't have it taken care of and I don't know if it is an urgent fix or what.
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They are not serious cracks, if it is any consolation. A luthier would cleat it under the spot and close it up. For a minor crack like that, some luthiers use a strip of fabric and glue to reinforce it. They don't look bad and may be made invisible. They don't affect the top at all, tonewise.
It looks to me that the deforming humbucker rings are putting force on the mounting screws. The force has caused the top to crack at the mounting holes. I don't know. Close up the cracks amd glue a small wooden doughnut under each hole?
I'd change the humbucker rings for properly sized ones. Wood screws are not the best for this guitar. My thoughts are to use a machine bolt slightly smaller than the wood screwmount hole, glue a bolt to a bit of paper, glue that under the top with easily removable glue like a dab of rubber cement (Cow Gum). This makes it reversible.
I would not want to enlarge the holes or cause further stress to the top with wood screws.
Just my suggestions. Talk to your luthier.
Edit: the pickup rings look small. The wood screws, are they original? Are they too large for the holes and causing the split in the top starting from the holes? I'd seriously look into replacing the mounting rings. Another suggestion is to remove the nickel-plated covers from the humbuckers and expose the bobbins. If the covers continue to deform the rings, the force gets transmitted to the screws. End result: splits in the top, starting from the holes.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 03-14-2017 at 03:28 AM.
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They look like very minor cracks to me too, but the rusty screws and deformed plastic do point to the pickguard degrading, so removing the guard is a priority. I think it is a possibility that the screws are rusting in the holes, so are exanding and causing a crack, or as Jabberwocky says, the plastic rings are deforming and putting stress on the mounting holes, but it is hard to see from the angle of the photos. If it were my guitar I would replace the pickup rings and screws, keep the pick guard off, and see how it goes. There are replacement guards in acrylic available.
P. S. Jabber, I don't think the pickup covers are deforming, it is the plastic rings, I don't think taking the covers off is a good idea!
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As Jabs mentioned they do not appear to be terrible and can be fixed - but lack of humidity control is certainly an assignable cause for grain cracks such as yours. In fact - they may close up ( to some extent ) with proper hydration. I would imagine the shock from the case mishap , along with inadequate humidity may have helped to spread it a bit . I also think the initiation was likely stress induced as Jabs noted with the pickup rings/ screws.
I would first hydrate the instrument slowly and see what happens before doing anything. As you noted - the crack had been there and your just noticing it more now.
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Rusting screws in a guitar top...ouch. Maybe they're going to corrode/oxidize further....maybe they're going to attract more moisture...maybe they're going to freeze in place, and then you might have to force them to remove them.
It's like corrosion building up on a battery connecting cable in your car. Nothing good is going to come from this, IMO.
You need to have someone knowledgeable look at this.Last edited by goldenwave77; 03-14-2017 at 07:01 AM.
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The most important thing is keep out the grime. The sooner you repair this the better it will look after the repair. Once dirt gets in the crack it is not easy or even possible to clean completely. It looks like the screws are the cause of the crack. Like Jabberwoky suggests a different system of mounting the pickup is a good idea. If the crack is fresh and fairly clean a little thinned hot hide glue wicked into the rehydrated crack will close the crack. Hide glue will shrink and pull the crack together. You may need no cleat at all but adding one is probably a good idea to reinforce the pickup mounting screw.
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Damn, I didn't even consider that the rings were putting stress on the top - that makes sense. Is there anything I can do in the mean time? I just ordered some humidipaks. Would changing the screws and rings myself be good to do before taking it in? This is particularly bad timing because in a month I have a really important gig - I can use other guitars for other gigs but I really needed this one for that gig and also since it is my only 25.5" guitar I need to be practicing on it. Thank you all very much for the advice.
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It looks like it needs to be cleaned before it is repaired so you can play it just try to keep her clean and don't rub any dirt into the cracks.
Originally Posted by rio
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Do you think it is ok to wait a month to take it in? I still need to find a place to do it but if it would not be a problem for the guitar to wait until after this gig I want to use it on that would certainly take the pressure off
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Absolutely needs to be professionally cleaned.......then depending on how busy that pro is he could get at the other needed repairs...cracks missing / replacing incorrect screws... Originally Posted by Matt Cushman
..my advice always is if you know a good luthier get it to him or her.......personally I'd not plan on having it in a month.......but it's better to have it ready & correct and wait for whatever that amount of time is, rather than getting it home and getting used to it and then being without it ( again ) for another x weeks.....
..just MHO - -good luck !!Last edited by Dennis D; 03-14-2017 at 03:31 PM.
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Hi Rio,
Been fixing cracks off and on for 40 years. But certainly emphasise a hands-on appraisal by your luthier over web forum opinion.
These are no big deal and 100% fixable - yes, fixed through the existing openings in the top, cleated or (more unusually) fabric reinforced is overwhelmingly a good idea.
The lack of humidification creates a shrinkage/tension across the top, which tends to open/extend the cracks.
A "best practices" fix will require getting the guitar stabilized at ~50% RH, then fixing the cracks. In this odd NE USA winter, we are in the driest time right now. So sure a crack could suddenly extend in the next weeks, but this is not the most likely thing. Decide to take the chances or not, by using it for your gig or getting the repair started.
Humidifying the guitar will help even in the near term. Just do not overdo it. Get to ~50% RH in the room or in the case, but do not get anything absurdly humid. The wood will gradually get to the moisture content consistent with the 50% RH environment.
The rusty screws do not "attract more moisture". Sure replace them as part of the repair, but not from any sort of "spreading disease" aspect.
The screws do create a notably increased tendency for minor cracks, but a competent luthier will both fix the cracks and prevent them from re-opening due to the minor stress of the screws.
If you humidify the guitar you may see the cracks close to some extent. You will still want to get them fixed.
Best of luck with this. Your guitar is fine and can be repaired to sound as good as ever and with notably improved crack resistance vs. new.
ChrisLast edited by ptchristopher3; 03-14-2017 at 11:52 AM. Reason: spelling
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Wow, thanks so much for the informative reply. That does put my mind at ease. The humidipak should be here in a few days so I will get that in there - I used them back when they were released but then they had the manufacturing defect with them leaking and that happened to me so I never got them since. That is actually when I stopped humidifying my guitars. But I have students who use them and it seems like they fixed that problem.
Question - will a humidipak in the guitar still work with the guitar left out or does it need to be in the case? I know that it would not benefit the neck but since it is not a big round sound hole would the smaller f holes keep humidity in enough to benefit the body even if it is left out? I really do like keeping my guitars out but I will put it in the case if I need to for the good of the instrument.
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Oh, note Matt Cushmans note about dirt in cracks. A clean crack can be closed and repaired far easier than one with a remarkable bio-goo mix in there.
In my opinion it is not practical to keep a guitar humidified out of the case in a dry room. Various attempts exist in the market, but either humidify the room, or keep it in the case when not playing.
My personal opinion is that it is a bad idea to put wet things inside a guitar. Humidify the room or the inside of the case.
I have seen some moldy and otherwise water damaged guitar interiors from excited "Damp-It" splooge and other in-instrument systems.
But that is my opinion. A truly water-tight device could work just fine inside the body of the instrument in terms of no damage. But a 50% RH interior of the body and a 15% RH room seem remarkably unlikely to work well for the guitar. There is considerable air movement through the f holes.Last edited by ptchristopher3; 03-14-2017 at 12:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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Rio,
As Pchristopher3 noted-and I mentioned earlier , you need to have the instrument hydrated before anything really takes place. If the crack is still present after proper hydration - then have it fixed. As long as the guitar is dry it will shrink across the grain.
If your leaving it in a case add some damp sponges ( or equivalent ) in a plastic soap case with holes drilled , or preferably (as I do) set up a humidifier in the room where the guitar is out of the case and maintain approx 50% humidity.
My guitars are maintained at 50-55% and the tuning barely moves and my instruments remain healthy and vibrant all year. It involves a decision to care for the instruments - no easy way out.Last edited by QAman; 03-14-2017 at 12:20 PM.
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The size of these screws is small, so all in all, this effect is slight. Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
But metals are conductors. They heat up and cool down at different rates than other stuff around them, like wood, which is an excellent insulator. When things heat up and cool down quickly, they attract condensation.
Go walk out in the early, early morning and take a look at a metal guard rail, fence post, etc. You'll see moisture condensed on it from morning dew, while surrounding areas are more dry. (I bet the same thing is even more pronounced in the desert where nighttime/daytime temp. swings can be 40-50 degrees F.)
If you paint a metal bridge, you do a couple of things. You stop rust by sealing off some direct air contact, but I would bet the paint itself acts with a slight insulating effect.
Again, this is a slight, slight effect, here.
I had parents who retired to Southern Fla. where it rains almost afternoon in the summertime. Anything exposed to the open air started to rust and corrode in a couple of seasons. People used to lightly mist exposed metal with hair spray or lacquer to try to slow it down.
Rusting is both a chemical and physical process. Kind of like termites---those little suckers physically chew on wood fibers, but also can literally digest wood cellulose. I would bet they also excrete something which also acts to break down wood as well.Last edited by goldenwave77; 03-14-2017 at 12:21 PM.
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It breaks my heart to see an instrument like that. And rusted screws.. Makes me ill.
Rio, take it into a pro. Once the residue gets into the crack it can be fixed, but it wont be fixed perfectly. The lines will always be there because the residue will always stand in between the fibers ability to re-flocculate.
But at least getting it glued and cleated will stop the cracks from getting worse. QAman is absolutely right about rehydrating it. That will straighten out the wood fibers at the point of the crack then once its repaired and the wood begins to dry, the fibers will attempt to curl around each other again forming a natural bond. The correct glue will take care of the rest.
And please, replace the screws. Its an L5, and unless you are Tuck Andress, you need to make it look like one..
Joe D
Originally Posted by QAman
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Hi Max405,
With very much respect for your view,
The fibers do not uncurl, nor do they re-curl to form any sort of "natural bond" as the glue dries.
There may be some microscopic activity to which you refer (I have never heard of anything like it, which does not mean it fails to exist.) but in any practical way the wood has split under tension, and is best glued back together.
Best practice will be to rehydrate, then repair the splits. Even a split that appears closed when the wood is rehydrated will not in any way re-attach.
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If that was my axe I would be running red lights to get to my luthier ASAP. As those cracks look right now they can be repaired to almost completely invisible and stronger than new. As a steward of a L5 it is kinda your duty. A good luthier will hydrate it before the repair. I would not wait. That is a straightforward easy crack repair. Keep it cased up till the repair. All the above advice is spot on.
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Hi Ptchristopher,
thanks. Just a little background to my madness.. I have been a product engineer and now V.P. of the department for a manufacturing company for over 30 years. I've worked with international paper company on projects using genetic splicing to speed the life of trees. I know the science of wood fairly well.
I didn't say any of the repair could be done without glue. In fact modern glues are a suitable substitute for the naturally occurring glues that hold the fibers together in the 1st place (namely, pectin and lignin). My point of rehydrating was so the severed cellulose fibers can straighten out and when they dry, they will curl around one another. In fact, this is precisely how paper is made. Without, I might add, the presence of any adhesive whatsoever.
Wood in its natural state is structurally very different than paper. However the cellulose fibers will rejoin using the process I pointed out and that will make the repair look more natural. But I agree, glue is necessary.
Thanks, Joe D
Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
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Hi Joe D,
I was given a diploma in 1980 based on the promise to never come back. More or less.
I was never caught flocculating in the bathroom or anything (even when thinking of Alice from the Brady Bunch), I just was a comparative imbecile.
On the other hand I have dealt with actual guitars quite a bit. The idea is to get the wood back to a moisture content consistent with something like 50% RH. This is to see to what extent the split will be closed by the wood at that moisture content.
The guitar in question has very minor splits, but in more exciting cases you could very well see that even at 50% RH there can be a need to splice in a filler of spruce to restore the top.
In many cases, it is my opinion that there is no practical similarity to a colloid in wood when repairing a guitar. As mentioned, you glue it together. I see no practical microscopic fiber action to improve the look of a joint along the grain. It would be handy as hell though.
I guess the closest it comes is when steaming a dent to get the crushed fibers back into their I original position - to some very imperfect extent.
Anyway, it is my opinion that so much lore develops from misunderstood (and maybe mis-applied) principles.
Thanks for the response on this.
ChrisLast edited by ptchristopher3; 03-14-2017 at 05:44 PM. Reason: spelling
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Totally off topic, but my dad was in the paper business and I spent many a day cruising timber with him, watching the paper-mill machinery, and every morning if the wind was right, from 50 miles away, I could smell my college bills being paid! Originally Posted by Max405
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To not lose the OP situation here:
The guitar is fine.
The splits are common and minor and absurdly repairable.
Clean beats dirty mostly for minor finish retouching (easy to do on this guitar).
The rusty screws are readily available as replacements.
This is very completely repairable situation with no likely imminent disaster at all.
Get it closer to 50% to reduce the chance of further splitting, but no need to worry or panic.
All in my opinion.
Chris
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Hi Joe D,
Taking a break from snow clearing here,... a real mess.
So when spruce splits, I suggest that three things happen:
1. Resin lets go and more or less parallel fibers end up on one side or the other of the split.
2. Some fibers break and end up with part on one side of the split and part on the other side.
3. Some fiber ends are pulled free from either a resin bond or an entanglement with another fiber and end up deformed and exposed on the surface of the split.
In my view #3 is comparatively small vs. #1 and #2.
Further, by the time we ham-fisted hacks get in there with hide glue or one's favorite Titebond (thinned some for this application), virtually (or quite literally) none of these #3 fiber free ends find their way back to their original love match.
I think it would be a truly terrible idea to wet the wood to encourage the #3 fibers to mate somehow. Most splits are the cleanest when repaired with as little fiddling around as possible after seeing how the wood looks at a roughly 50% RH.
Great to kick the subject around some. I never really thought of wood has having any sort of colloid-like property in practice, but in principle it is great for you to point this out.
ChrisLast edited by ptchristopher3; 03-14-2017 at 07:29 PM. Reason: spelling
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