Gibson L-4 CES

[silhouette]

I am thinking of buying a Gibson L-4 CES.

I have not really known much about them other than they are a 175 with a carved top and an ebony fretboard. I think it is a 95.

Any thoughts?

[JohnW400]

There very nice. I think the front pup is closer to the neck on those as well compared to a 175. They're underrated as a jazz box.

[derek]

Joe Diorio always played one, and got a great sound from it. I test drove one at the time I was shopping for a 175, and I had a bit of trouble with feedback, but it was a very nice instrument. You have the basics correct though, a 175 with solid top basically.

[randyc]

Very nearly my favorite guitar ! See my '98 model, on the left below .... Unless the instrument is defective in some way, you will most likely play it very well. There are just some guitars that bring out the best in one due to their fit, action and TONE.

Oh yeah: I have yet to find an amp that doesn't flatter the L-4CES.

cheers

p.s. can someone clue me as to how to post larger images ?

[JohnW400]

Nice looking boxes there. Nothing like a little eye candy

[silhouette]

Thanks guys.
I have to think about whether I want the black finish as I usually like to see the wood.
I have a Heritage 575 - 1956 175 x 1 p90 - Ibanez GB 10 and a Peerless Monarch.

I like that there seems to be a lot of activity on this site.

[silhouette]

Yeah I will try tomorrow.
Got to get some sleep!
I'm a teacher and I go back to school tomorrow/today.

[silhouette]

Funnily enough I went to buy the L4 and the seller had a rather nice Guild Artist Award for sale as well. So I purchased them both.
The Artist award is a late 70's.
Both guitars are fab to play.
Oh and the 175 had a happy ending as I found a Californian company that di areal excellent aged repro part - could not tell the difference.

[paco can]

My main guitar.
Big, lovely

[randyc]

Paco, that's a pretty L-4CES and you play it skillfully.

Silhouette, nice guitars (we share three of those models incidentally). That old ES-175 is a lovely instrument, it's great that you were able to replace the tailpiece with a suitable part !

Although the pickups (and the ages) are way different, your comments on the differences/similarities between the ES-175 and the L-4CES would be interesting.

[silhouette]

Thanks for sharing Paco - some really nice playing.
I'm not sure that I deserve my guitars!

Which guitars do we share?

Actually the 175 went in for a re-fret recently. My local guitar tech did a fantastic job and it really improved the acoustic response. As result it now plays beautifully.
The L4 has a very middy sound that seems to record really well. However, it has a rather bright acoustic sound. The Guild has a beautiful acoustic sound as there is no hole in the sound board - well other than the f holes. The de Armond is a fantastic pick-up - no wonder they fetch so much on ebay. It is a fantastic pure jazz guitar.
The GB10 is bright and full an almost perfect recorded sound - no wonder Norman Brown likes them so much

[Ged]

Having had a L4 CES for about a year, I have to say that they produce a beautiful sound provided you use them with a substantially-weighted amp (like the Fender Jazz King). The only thing on the 'con' side is that they can be a bit of the rattle-box. It could be the base of the bridge not quite matching the curvature of the top; the position and angle of the tailpiece; loose wiring inside; or, more usually, the scratchplate.

But I don't want to sound too negative as any decent repairman should be able to sort it out, although he'll probably have to go through all the issues to find it. Other than that...great...

[Ged]

Well, since writing that last year I've had the guitar (again) seen by a luthier concerning the rattling. For the second time he managed to get rid of it, only for it to return some weeks later. So I'm wondering if any of you guys can come up with an answer.

Let's go through what it is not.

1. The internal wiring? No, all this was taped up and checked.
2. Pick up dampers? No, these were renewed along with the springs.
3. The tailpiece? No, he thought of this and changed the angle slightly having seen other guitars with this problem.
4. The scratch plate? No, it's the first thing we went for and all the screws and nuts were tightened with double-sided tape attached to the part that touches the bridge pick up.
5. The frets? No, they have been reprofiled.
6. The bridge? No, he spotted that the part that touches the guitar table had a tiny gap. Hence, the bridge was altered to fit exactly.
7. Internal edge binding or strutting? No, all secure.
8. Loose volume and tone controls? No, checked.

So I am left with one thing only...the strings I use, although I can't fathom how this would cause the buzzing. I use D'Addario XL Chromes flat wound (.011 to .050).

Therefore, can any of you geniuses come up with an answer?

[Bill C]

the capacitor attached to the tone control? I used to own an ES-125 where playing a Bb always set off a mechanical buzzing from the tone cap.

"back buzz"? - when you play a certain chord a string on the headstock side of the fretting hand buzzes.

parts inside Tuneomatic bridge?

[Patrick2]

Thanks for sharing Paco - some really nice playing.
I'm not sure that I deserve my guitars!

Which guitars do we share?

Actually the 175 went in for a re-fret recently. My local guitar tech did a fantastic job and it really improved the acoustic response. As result it now plays beautifully.
The L4 has a very middy sound that seems to record really well. However, it has a rather bright acoustic sound. The Guild has a beautiful acoustic sound as there is no hole in the sound board - well other than the f holes. The de Armond is a fantastic pick-up - no wonder they fetch so much on ebay. It is a fantastic pure jazz guitar.
The GB10 is bright and full an almost perfect recorded sound - no wonder Norman Brown likes them so much

Just some observations which were not mentioned .. or if they were, then I missed them. On the L4CES . . . unless Gibson has changed, I think they have solid mahog back and rims. The H575, while dimensionally similar, has carved maple all the way around. Also, the L4CES has, unless I'm mistaken, an ebony finger board. The ES 175 has rose wood as does the H575, unless ordered special with an ebony board. Some say that an Ebony board could also produce a slightly brighter tone. The ES175, while dimensionally similar to the L4, is laminate maple. On the '70s Guild AA . . the De Armond is probably the 1100. I don't think there was ever a sweeter jazz pup made.

[Dennis D]

I started out with a '60's ES-175, and once I became to accustomed to the size and scale, I never saw a need to change. I like the L-4 sound better, although the 175 was never any slouch either. The solid top just makes a difference- - and the ebony fingerboard doesn't hurt either. The L-4 I found is a natural, and now for me that color is a must have. A friend of mine said 'the L-4 is what a 175 should have been', and I agree. MHO Dennis

[boatheelmusic]

FWIW:

My Es-175 and L-4 CES had a bit of the "gargling" sound when chorded high, especially through an amp.

When I readjusted the pickup heights, it disappeared.

I have the bridge pickup at 4/32 on the high E string, and 3/32 on the low E, measuring from bottom of string to top of pole piece.

For the neck pickup, I have the high E at 3/32 and the low E at 4/32.

All measurements with strings fretted at last fret.

These heights give good top-to bottom string balance, and bridge to neck volume balance.

I use .012's.

The guitars also sound better acoustically with these heights!

[fabiansey]

Hello,
there is a Gibson L4 CES in a city that is not to far away from my place. It is sunburst and from 2006.
I have owned two ES 175 which I liked but alway missed a little bit the acoustic character.

I live in Europe where the L4 is really rare, especially used. So maybe you could help me and tell me what a good price would be for a used instrument, all original, normal play wear, no repairs...

Thank you
Fabian

[Minte]

I've seen a few out there about that age in the upper $3's to lower $4's and they were both very clean. 9/10.
With all the case candy.

[Jabberwocky]

A 2006 L-4CES ASB, you say. I don't know about Europe but Stateside it would sell for about $2695 to $2795, depending on condition. A 2006 L-4CES Natural sells for $2995 privately. Adjust for European markup.

The Nashville-made L-4CES is found on the used market for about $500 more than the ES-175 of the same vintage and finish, in general. It is not "iconic" like the ES-175 and so less in demand. It is also more feedback prone and less hardy as it has a solid spruce top. It has its own tonal attribute. Not as versatile as a dual-pickup ES-175 for other genres.

P.S. Gibson has increased its prices greatly since 2013. Back in 2009 to 2011, a brand-new L-4CES ASB had a MAP of about $4395 to $4495. (I remember my fave Gibson dealer advertising a 2011/2012 L-4CES Natural with a MAP of $5075. Look at it today, over $7000 for the same thing.) That translated to a street price of between $3750 and $3850. Used, you can usually find it for about 70% of that street price. In my coneheaded opinion, the grossly inflated Crimson Custom L-4CES is not worth the asking when the pre-2013 ones can be found for much lower. Save yourself $1200 or more.

[vinnyv1k]

All Gibsons are going completely out of sight in price. My blonde 2010 Wesmo cost me $6700 + tax. Now they are over $10K. My 2008 Tal Farlow new was $2800.00 + tax but was stolen. Just bought a 2014 Tal Farlow and it was $4500 + tax. This is with me getting a great price from my local dealer. Check out the prices at musicians friend.

[Franz 1997]

In the UK, they go for about £2500 ( maybe 2900 Euros). Recently asking prices have gone up here, reflecting Jab's post above, but since it is such a small market, my feeling is that a savvy buyer will still pay around the same after negotiation.

These guitars tend to stay on the market for a long time, so the trick is to find someone who needs a fast sale.

[vinnyv1k]

Most people like 175's better but I really like L4's alot. Both mohagany & plywood back and sides. I would snatch up that axe if the price is right.

[fabiansey]

Thank you all for your replies-and the comparison with the step son....
So I think about 3000 € would be fair-it still has the ebony fingerboard. I think the new ones all have rosewood.
Since the seller asks more than 4000 € I will probably not buy the guitar since in Europe from time to time you can get a L5 Wes for about 5000-5200.
I think the design is interesting. Not much in common with the L5 ces so I would not see it as a poor man L5.

[docbop]

Last time I was at Norm's Rare Guitars I asked about 165's and L4 and they were saying can usually find those for good price since they aren't the common models people ask for like L5, 175, Birdland, etc. Popularity of the model affects the price a lot.