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I recently found myself enjoying listening to many different Gypsy "Hot Club" style groups and thought it would be fun to learn a bit about that style.
In the past, I've played a variety of styles (rock, quartet jazz bass, and more recently tinkered around a good bit with a mandolin). I have some questions about how to best get started.
I've ordered a couple of good books from Amazon (Mel Bay L'Esprit Manouche and the first of John Jorgensen's books -- still in the mail) and plan on using my ES-775 as the instrument of choice.
I realize that its an electric guitar & probably not ideal, but I think it better than some of the other guitars at my disposal (Guild folk acoustic, classical nylon string, and dobro).
Any suggestions either with instrument & course of study?
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10-26-2013 02:51 PM
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Django played an electric guitar at the very end of his life ... your gibson should not be a problem!
the aim is to play "gipsy": l'esprit manouche is one of the best books we have in France about this style; there's a topic about "django's fake book" in this site (I have it on PDF, if you need it, 200 tunes, gipsy and pre-war jazz, send me a PM),
If you can find a teacher just do it, and listen to the music!!
cheers
michel
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Thanks! I'll be on the lookout for the book. It should be arriving in a few days. I believe that I'd pulled down the Django fake book a while back. That has some great tunes in it. Very different from the fake book I'd been using dating back to days (about 30 years ago) when I played bass in a small jazz ensemble. I suspect that there are some stylistic tricks and techniques that I can learn from the books & will apply nicely to the music in that fake book.
I found some local enthusiasts. Perhaps that may be a nice way to improve as I learn the new tunes.
Regards,
Mike
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Gobble up all Denis Chang's youtube samples on rhythm.
Steal Django's licks...and Stochelo...and Boulou Ferre...and Fapy Lafertin...and...
John Jorgenson's books are good and his teaching style is very easy to follow.
what kind of guild acoustic? You might be surprised...
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Thanks. The Gretsch is a G3700, labelled "historic series" Seems like it may work. The sound tends to be a bit more muted (less punchy). I ran across Dennis Chang's website. I'll give that a go as well.
mikeLast edited by mrodbell; 10-26-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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Oscar Aleman often used a resophonic, so unless the Dobro is a squareneck, you might consider using it.
Originally Posted by mrodbell
Brad
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The Dobro is a roundneck. It definitely requires a bit more effort to fret than the other instruments, but still may be worth a shot more as a backing/rhythm instrument. I'm curious (not necessarily in the market), how do the instruments such as the Gitane Selmer and others compare to the more familiar guitars? from looking at the photos, it appears that the bodies tend to be a bit larger. Also, the fret arrangements seems to vary a bit.
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Another book to track down is Stan Ayeroff's The Music of Django Reinhardt: Forty-Four classic Solos by the Legendary Guitarist with a Complete Analysis. Great book: no tab.
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You owe it to yourself to at least check out some Selmer style guitars...they truly sound like nothing else.
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Jeff,
I just started looking at the DVD that came with the John Jorgenson book. After hearing the first bits with both the guitars (D-hole and Selmer style), I've noticed a distinct difference in sound. Of the guitars I own, the one that seems to come closest to that sound, while not quite there is my Dobro. I've started tinkering with the Gibson ES-775, and will probably continue for the meanwhile (not quite ready to shell out the bucks for another guitar).
One other thing I noticed in the DVD: he's advocating for using an extremely heavy pick. At present, I like the Fender "Heavy" picks, although they seem tiny compared to the one he's using. I may swing by the music store and try out the heavier pick. Question for you (or others): Have you had any experience using the larger (wider) picks with other guitars, and with what results? Any brand recommendations? I seem to recall some jazz guitarists years ago advocating for a pretty thick, ground/polished stone pick.
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I like really thick picks, but I use a very different touch on my regular guitars than I do on my gypsy...and overall, I dig 2-2.5mm on my regular gits but like 3mm or more on my gypsy (gitane dg320)...it likes to be hit HARD.
I've tried the thicker picks on my regular guitars and they really only sound good if I jack the action up a bit...but I actually play gypsy jazz now with my Taylor more often than my dedicated gypsy jazz box, and it's a different sound, but I like it...it-s a much more enjoyable guitar to play (as far as im concerned) so I don't mind being the quieter guy...I don't buy into the whole "gotta play like it's 1930" biz...because I maintain django was an innovator not a follower, and I actually think he'd find modern gypsy jazz hilarious...and then he'd go gig with ari hoenig.
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thanks. I think for now, I'll stick with what I've been comfortable with. It also happens to be the same pick I've found works well with the mandolin. That seems to help me maintain a consistent feel when tinkering with the various instruments.
The Gitane guitar you have sounds nice. Just looking at them. Do you prefer the D-hole configuration over the brighter lead instruments? Again, based on the tonality, I've found that the closest approximation I can get to the sound will come from the dobro. Perhaps the slightly higher action and resonator (and metal body) combine to provide a much brighter/punchier sound.
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I like long scale D hole the best...kind of best of both worlds...
go with the resonator for now at least...and yeah, maybe get a few fat picks and get acquainted, because if you ever do get a gypsy jazz guitar you will really need one (I reccommend wegen, dugain, and moustache) but those fat picks don't have too much of an impact on non gypsy guitars...they usually are just too much pick...
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I just want to second in on the Gitane Selmer style guitars. I use a D hole model 500. I bought it new three years ago it is a fantastic guitar, very well made, loud and the tone is really really good. I don't think you will be disappointed if you decide to purchase one.
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Interesting. I see that there are a handful of places through which these instruments can be purchased mail order. Before I were to do that, I'd prefer to try one out. May need to do some research as I don't see any shops close by (I live just north of Baltimore) who carry the Gitane (or related) lines of guitars. Then again, I'm in no rush.
Thanks for the tip, it is intriguing!
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I think you're going about it the smart way...dip in, learn some technique...
And if you can make a trip, once you learn some moves, do try them out on a selmer style...there's a reason they use these things...
Another Gitane user here...definitely not gonna say it's the be all end all of Selmer style guitars, but it's a cool instrument, and it definitely gets the job done.
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I'm in a similar place, starting to learn Gypsy jazz without an actual Gypsy guitar.
I have an eastman AR3711CE and a folk guitar (Arirang 9900) none of them are suitable for gypsy style.
I'm saving for a real luthier guitar (probably a used one) as I don't like the ones made in China for Gypsy style.
Some people praise the affordable "Gitane" and the "Cigano" guitars, but I don't like the way they sound.
One thing I found out that is very important is the perfect pick.
I'm using a Vladimir Muzic pick made of carbon
The vladiator (in the center) http://shoppingcart.djangobooks.com/...ir-muzic-picks
It really makes a big difference to me, even compared to Dugain picks.
It makes it possible (if awkward and unrewarding) to play "la pompe" on a non-gypsy guitar. Just have your guitar set with high action using the strongest gauge of string you can handle.
In the field of entry price, luthier made, Gypsy guitars you might want to look at Maurice Dupont's "Nomade" or Castelluccia's "Gypsy" http://www.castelluccia.fr/home.php?...=162&id_prod=9
My opinion is that, unless you are already a seasoned musician with a good pitch and improvisational skills, it's good to focus on rythm (la pompe) the first few years you learn Gypsy jazz so my first guitar will be aimed at "la pompe" solely, and I'll probably stick to that. I'll probably chorus an occasional bar or two but that will not be the focus of my practice.
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Agree on the pick. I picked up some of the Wegen Gypsy Jazz picks. It works very nicely with the dobro, which may have qualities more similar to the more traditional gypsy jazz guitars (action, volume). I've tried it with my mandolin, but found it a bit too noisy (pick sounds). Are you using the new pick with your acoustic or the Eastman? I'm hesitant to use it with my electric out of a concern that it wouldn't be a great sound.
Good tip on the Gitane series guitars. Given that I'm doing this solely for my own entertainment (I don't perform, and for that matter, have yet to find people locally to play with), my wife reminded me that I've already spent a fair bit over the years on guitars, so that will wait, perhaps for quite a while.
What I am finding is that there are some very different patterns, both "la pompe" as well as melody/improvising patterns. In particular, the emphasis on arpeggios that suit what one can sound as fixed chords is a different perspective from the more typical scale/linear sequences. No doubt a homage to Django's left hand and playing style.
The book from John Jorgenson is decent for a start. I'm finding the book L'Esprit Manouche far more comprehensive. For tunes, there's a nice fakebook of Django era tunes available for free on the web (at http://www.gypsyguitar.de/downloads/...jango_2008.pdf).
Sounds like you're in about the same place as I. There's a wealth of things to learn and enjoy. Between the electric jazz guitar and acoustic, I am keeping myself amply entertained.
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I use either the archtop or the flattop for practicing "la pompe" none of them really does the trick but either allow me to build some "manouche vocabulary" so I can hopefully know enough to choose wisely when I finally can afford to go shopping for a real gypsy guitar.
Right now my challenge is to keep time, the guitar is almost irrelevant, my tool is the metronome.
I find the Vladimir Muzic pick a lot better than the wegen as it is more rounded in shape at the tip and doesn't "rattle" as much as the wegen which is precious because the "pompe" requires a strong pulse from the right hand. The second best pick I have is a Dugain made of buffalo Horn.
I heard that the "gitane" guitars are not bad for Chinese guitars but require a lot of setup in order to be playable (like changing the nut and the bridge to allow for higher action and changing the tuners) so if you buy one new and factor in the price of setup and parts, you might as well add a few hundred dollars and find a pre-owned luthier guitar. Now if you can find a used Gitane all setup and ready to play you might find yourself a fair deal with a nice Wife Acceptance Factor.
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I've had a lot of fun with Minor Swing after finding a decent transcription of Djangos solo.
I have two questions. What is a decent intermeidiate guitar for GJ .. and does it have to be the longer +26" scale?
I tried a Gitane DG255 recently and thought it sounded thin, but dunno?
And secondly. Apart from Minor Swing, what would be the usual suspects played at a Gypsy jazz jam
Limehouse Blues, that gypsy bossa, Nuages ???
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Welcome to the base camp of the Himalayas! It's a noble quest and sometimes lonely one. You've undoubtedly discovered the djangobooks forum and website. Lots of good information and folks over there.
The one thing that's gonna get hammered into your head with a ice axe is right hand technique. Where most archtop player including myself tend to mute with the right hand palm at the bridge, touching the bridge is a no-no in GJG. Also, be prepared to use a plectrum that feels like a assault wepon even if you currently use a extra heavy pick.
The Gitane DG255 is a great place to start. It's more about the technique than the instrument. The oval hole long scale may sound thin to you the player, they are designed to cut through and project thru a campfire gathering of dozens of Gitane smoking, Pernod drinking cats chomping away at "La Pompe". Be advised I have been totally kicked around the room and humbled by players on cheap Ciganos because of superior technique.
You might want to play both oval hole and D hole GJG's before investing in one. We are lucky in this day and age the flood of Asian imports has allowed access to this type of instrument which was not the case 20 years ago. I'm no Jimmy Rosenberg but after several different GJG's I'm more comfortable with the short scale D soundhole guitar-it's more versatile IMHO for what I do.
All of Me, See You In My Dreams, Marie, Swing 42, Djangology, J'Attendrai are tunes you will have in your DNA. Forum member Stringswinger here is a exceptionally talented player and my guess is he will chime in as well.
Good luck on your climb!
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Thanks for the warm welcome. Love your writing!
Intuition tells me that I might be more at ease with a D-hole short scale guitar. But gypsy guitars are few and far between in my part of the woods, so after your reply I'm leaning towards that DG255 that has showed up on the used marked
Btw ... My default pick has always been the purple 2.0 mm dunlop. You recommend heavier?
But yeah ... pernod, red wine and maybe a striped tshirt while bashing out la pompe sounds good
Last edited by Lobomov; 09-19-2017 at 11:21 AM.
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3.0-4.0mm is pretty standard for GJG picks, however, like a lot of stuff in the GJG world you can spend a small fortune pursuing items that works wonderfully for someone else but not you.
One item that you will find essential are the proper GJG strings. I'm fond of the Argentines 12 set, but a lot of manufactures have jumped into the market. Warning they don't last very long.
If you are liking the Gitane that is local to you go for it. It happens quite a bit-a player will get fired up on the style, realize it's a lot of work, gives up, and the guitar comes on the market at a bargain price. Be advised that just like archtops, a person can become obsessed with these instruments and want to upgrade to the "real" thing which generally means a guitar built in France or Europe. Save yourself some brain damage and if you do make the upgrade look at Dupont guitars which are sort of the Gibson L-5 of GJG's. Also know that no matter how fantastic a GJG built by a obscure luthier may be, these guitars can be a very difficult item to sell.
Most of all-have fun.
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At least I'm in Europe! Originally Posted by SierraTango
But yeah .. I think that the last couple of years I've only seen two or three GJG guitars for sale on the used market. A very niche market to say the least. The DG255 is already priced good, I'll try to knock it down to a real bargain.
And hey .. if I fall in love with the style enough to want a real expensive one then so be .. hopefully that will also mean that I've practiced a lot
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SierraTango has provided a good start answering the questions (and thanks for the kind words ST!). I will add my 2 cents....
Books: Get Gypsy Picking and Gypsy Rhythm by Michael Horowitz (available at Djangobooks.com) to learn the style. Get Robin Nolans play along books and Gig Book to learn the tunes (Available from Robin himself or Djangobooks.com. Some of these may be out of print and may take a little searching to find).
Picks: I use a 1.5 mm Purple Dunlop pick (the same one used by Bireli Lagrene). It works for me and I have tried the heavier picks (Wegans, Dugains etc.). Try a bunch and see what works for you. There is no right answer here.
Guitars: Start with a Gitane (long or short scale) and if you find are a Gypsy jazz player for life, move up to a Dupont (50 series or higher). There are other entry level guitars and other high end guitars out there, but the Gitane gives you the most bang for your buck when you are getting started and the Dupont gives you "the right sound" coupled with marketability. If you think that the guitar sounds thin, it may be your lack of proper technique and not the guitar.
Pickups: Krivo. I have tried them all and for real world gigs, nothing beats the Krivo for tone and performance.
Amps: AER Compact 60 is the standard and works well in this genre. The new ones are 14 pounds and are loud enough to play a noisy venue.
The best way to learn Gypsy jazz guitar is by doing. Go to the Djams, play the tunes, and make the changes (If you try to solo over Swing 42 using a bunch of rock and roll pentatonic licks, you will soon be unwelcome at the Djam). This is a seriously challenging genre of music to play, but is quite fun and my experience has been that people who do not like jazz, tend to like Gypsy jazz. Good luck!
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