Vintage47 Spectator Amp

[Hep To The Jive]

Need a bit of advice! I have Vintage 47 Spectator amp, I really dig the tone, but my problem is it breaks up way too soon. Very little headroom. It's 7 watt, so I shouldn't expect miracles, but maybe I can improve a little bit?

It has one 5881 Tungsol in power amp section, 6SL7 in pre, and 5Y3GT rectifier. Ted Weber 10 inch alnico speaker.

I wanted an octal tube amp, so I got that tone, just don't really need that much break up. Possibly change 5881 for 6L6? Or the speaker replacement?

Any ideas and thoughts are appreciated!

Here's more info:

V47 Valco Spectator

[Little Jay]

Yes, you could use a modern 6L6GC and a more efficient speaker for a slight increase in headroom. It won't turn it into a clean machine and I don't know how much the tone would change (for better or worse).

[old tube]

It's a really simple circuit, assuming they have followed the Valco reasonably faithfully. I would have thought that the preamp is the more likely area to look at to tame early break up. Without altering the circuit, you could try a 6SN7. It has a lower gain factor (20 compared to 70-80 in the 6SL7). It will reel-in the early breakup, but it will also drop the overall volume of the amp. So a balancing act really.

If you go that route, while I normally advocate NOS tubes, you might want to go with a modern Sovtek in the first instance as finding old Octals that are not microphonic or noisy can be a lottery.

[mad dog]

A ceramic speaker could help with that.
MD

[Hep To The Jive]

Thanks guys, very helpful replies!

@Old Tubes- I don't think I want to go with the drop of the volume, it's not a very loud amp as is, I can't use it with a drummer.

Also, I emailed Steve from V47, and he said changing speaker won't help, because at 7W there is no break up coming from the speaker, rated at least 15 W. Make sense. So I'm gonna just change the power tube and see what happens. I'm assuming no biasing needed?

@Mad Dog- how the ceramic speaker would differ? Will it change the tone much? I can do with less boominess. It's a very boomy, bassy amp, which is great for jazz at low volumes. But with the Guild it was just too much for my taste, as it was pretty deep sounding guitar as I remember. With a tele I can work it, though. How's that Guild btw, still enjoying it I hope?

[mad dog]

Anton:

I hope all is good, and you are playing lots. Yes indeed, I am loving that wonderful Guild!

Any speaker change could change the tone. Depends in part on how efficient (loud) that Weber alnico is now, and how much the characteristic alnico compression at higher volumes is contributing to break up. I've had amps where specific alnico speakers were close to unusable, as they were too loose and fuzzy in the bass, too early to distort. Hard to generalize. Higher power alnicos can be clean and tight. So it really depends on what you have in there now, and how it sounds in that amp.

Ceramics tend to tighten up the bass. A more efficient ceramic would add volume before distortion. I've had good luck with Eminence copperheads, WGS G10C, also Eminence Legend 105 ceramics. You might lose some of that great sounding alnico compression with a ceramic, but most likely the amp will be more usable in real world gigging. Another option would be to go for a higher power alnico. A Celestion Gold 10 for example. Or the WGS G10A. Or my favorite, the 30 watt weber 10A125, not really high powered, but more so than the P10R equivalents you so often find in lower power amps. Problem here is price. Alnicos cost a whole lot more.

Unfortunately, the only way to know is to try stuff. And in this, craigslist is your friend. Any number of people buy new speakers, don't wait for a proper breakin period before concluding they don't like the sound, and sell.
MD

[Hep To The Jive]

Anton:

I hope all is good, and you are playing lots. Yes indeed, I am loving that wonderful Guild!

Any speaker change could change the tone. Depends in part on how efficient (loud) that Weber alnico is now, and how much the characteristic alnico compression at higher volumes is contributing to break up. I've had amps where specific alnico speakers were close to unusable, as they were too loose and fuzzy in the bass, too early to distort. Hard to generalize. Higher power alnicos can be clean and tight. So it really depends on what you have in there now, and how it sounds in that amp.

Ceramics tend to tighten up the bass. A more efficient ceramic would add volume before distortion. I've had good luck with Eminence copperheads, WGS G10C, also Eminence Legend 105 ceramics. You might lose some of that great sounding alnico compression with a ceramic, but most likely the amp will be more usable in real world gigging. Another option would be to go for a higher power alnico. A Celestion Gold 10 for example. Or the WGS G10A. Or my favorite, the 30 watt weber 10A125, not really high powered, but more so than the P10R equivalents you so often find in lower power amps. Problem here is price. Alnicos cost a whole lot more.

Unfortunately, the only way to know is to try stuff. And in this, craigslist is your friend. Any number of people buy new speakers, don't wait for a proper breakin period before concluding they don't like the sound, and sell.
MD

Thanks Michael, I'll look into it. The tube switch first though, lets see how it behaves after that. But more volume would be sweet. Are ceramic speakers generally heavier than alnicos? Right now the amp is 18 lbs, pretty light, just what's needed.

[neatomic]

the breakup is the octal pre-amp tone...that's what they do...they don't have the smooth harmonic content of 12ax7's

changing power tubes and speakers will change your tonal frequencies and may get you a db or two louder, but the nastiness is in the octal...

btw ceramic/ferrite speakers and alnico's weigh about the same..it's not until you get to neo mags that you get a marked weight reduction..the neos are so powerful you dont need a huge magnet

honestly i think playing with your guitar controls is your best bet...back off your guitar volume a bit and turn the amp up..you'll be hitting the octal preamp tube softer and making up for it with the power tube...

good luck

cheers

ps- here's solid info on 5881 vs 6l6 question

The Difference Between a 5881 and a 6L6GC Valve? - ampvalves.co.uk

[Hep To The Jive]

the breakup is the octal pre-amp tone...that's what they do...they don't have the smooth harmonic content of 12ax7's

changing power tubes and speakers will change your tonal frequencies and may get you a db or two louder, but the nastiness is in the octal...

btw ceramic/ferrite speakers and alnico's weigh about the same..it's not until you get to neo mags that you get a marked weight reduction..the neos are so powerful you dont need a huge magnet

honestly i think playing with your guitar controls is your best bet...back off your guitar volume a bit and turn the amp up..you'll be hitting the octal preamp tube softer and making up for it with the power tube...

good luck

cheers

ps- here's solid info on 5881 vs 6l6 question

The Difference Between a 5881 and a 6L6GC Valve? - ampvalves.co.uk

I love the break up, I just don't wanna it so soon. I need that 'on the verge' of break up point, but there is not enough headroom right now to arrive at the sweet spot at the right volume, if it makes sense.

I actually read a lot of reviews where loudness is the issue with V47 amps. I mean, the lack of it.

[neatomic]

well a super efficient speaker will help...a celestion alnico gold would be great..its super efficient (high db@ 1 watt)..has deep solid but clean low end and beautiful chimey highs..a very full spectrum speaker..only caveat is its comparatively pricey...but well worth looking into!!


the webers that come with the v47s are fairly low end...steve and david barnes thought being that the low power doesn't require much more..but a really good speaker like the celestion gold will always give you that much more useable tone and volume

cheers

[Hep To The Jive]

well a super efficient speaker will help...a celestion alnico gold would be great..its super efficient (high db@ 1 watt)..has deep solid but clean low end and beautiful chimey highs..a very full spectrum speaker..only caveat is its comparatively pricey...but well worth looking into!!


the webers that come with the v47s are fairly low end...steve and david barnes thought being that the low power doesn't require much more..but a really good speaker like the celestion gold will always give you that much more useable tone and volume

cheers

Right, but the present speaker is 4ohms, and the Celestions are 8 ohms... It's going to be a problem, isn't it?

[neatomic]

whoops...yeah...you want to stick with 4 ohm speaker for max volume..and best for transformer as well

so an efficient (100db range) 4 ohm 10" speaker is needed...

trickier! haha

cheers

[medblues]

whoops...yeah...you want to stick with 4 ohm speaker for max volume..and best for transformer as well

so an efficient (100db range) 4 ohm 10" speaker is needed...

trickier! haha

cheers

Most 4 ohm speakers are bass speakers

I only know of these two as efficient (less than 100 dB) at 4 ohm: http://www.eminence.com/pdf/DeltaliteII_2510_4.pdf
P10R | Jensen Loudspeakers

Weber can build you a loud 10 inch at 4 ohm though.

[neatomic]

hey hep was just looking at your v47 spectator link, and read this-

Interactive volume and tone controls - Helps control feedback and gain.


so make sure you play around with both knobs to get maximum toneful volume

btw, no info on speaker impedence on v47 site..you sure it's 4ohm? im seeing the weber alnico signature 10's being offered on weber site at 8 & 16 ohms....only

doublecheck that...agree with medb^..4 ohm 10" speakers are usually for bass cabs


cheers

[mad dog]

Anton:

I did not know it was 4 ohms required. That lets out Eminence. WGS and Weber so sell 4 ohm versions of their various speakers, so you're not out of luck at all should you wish to experiment.

MD

[omphalopsychos]

I'm certain that it's 8 ohms. I had that same amp for a few months and swapped the speaker. I used a weber 10a125, which gave it a bit more clean volume. A 10a150 would give a significant volume increase. I ended up selling it because I came across a V47 amp that was 12 watts with a 12" speaker, and that gave me the headroom I needed.

I think swapping in a 6L6 and a powerful alnico speaker will help you get more clean volume. Try emailing the guys at Weber speakers. They are quick to reply (1 business day) and give great recommendations.

[omphalopsychos]

Let me correct myself! The version I had had a 4 ohm and 8 ohm speaker out, now that I recall correctly. I know they have made many modifications to the circuit over the years. I don't want to speak definitively for yours.

[omphalopsychos]

Also, it might not be a bad idea to consider getting a more powerful V47. If you keep an eye out, you will find one show up on Reverb for a good price. Also, you would have no trouble selling yours. Those amps are quite famous now and used ones that come up get snatched quickly because the price is so great.

^ just an idea before you go the potentially more expensive route of modding.

[vintagelove]

the breakup is the octal pre-amp tone...that's what they do...they don't have the smooth harmonic content of 12ax7's

changing power tubes and speakers will change your tonal frequencies and may get you a db or two louder, but the nastiness is in the octal...

btw ceramic/ferrite speakers and alnico's weigh about the same..it's not until you get to neo mags that you get a marked weight reduction..the neos are so powerful you dont need a huge magnet

honestly i think playing with your guitar controls is your best bet...back off your guitar volume a bit and turn the amp up..you'll be hitting the octal preamp tube softer and making up for it with the power tube...

good luck

cheers

ps- here's solid info on 5881 vs 6l6 question

The Difference Between a 5881 and a 6L6GC Valve? - ampvalves.co.uk

hi, I have to say, I couldn't disagree more.

octals are FAR superior sounding to 12xxx. I recently rebuilt a 40 octal amp, and I think it is the best sounding clean amp I've heard, it's at very least neck and neck with my 64 super reverb, which is a great one.

The octals are more dynamic, thick, and have an open top which is immediately discernible from 12ax7's.


Perhaps the circuit you're referencing is the cause for the sound.

[Hep To The Jive]

It is def. 4 ohms speaker.



I was considering a 12' inch speaker amp with more power, but choose the Spectator based on weight. Sorry, NYC commuter with no car here, always running up and down the stairs to catch a train or a bus

But we'll see, it's maybe still a good idea to get something like VA-185 G, based on old Gibson amp.

[Robertkoa]

I think you should call one of those Tube Wizard places where they have many tubes and see if there is a higher headroom version of that Octal Preamp Tube or a substitute ...

[neatomic]

hi, I have to say, I couldn't disagree more.

octals are FAR superior sounding to 12xxx. I recently rebuilt a 40 octal amp, and I think it is the best sounding clean amp I've heard, it's at very least neck and neck with my 64 super reverb, which is a great one.

The octals are more dynamic, thick, and have an open top which is immediately discernible from 12ax7's.


Perhaps the circuit you're referencing is the cause for the sound.

superior is a very subjective term!!!...the original founder of vintage'47 amps- david barnes- had a webpage dedicated to the differences that you should expect between 12ax7's and his octal (valco-supro based amps)

another key point is, what guitar and pickups you are running through it

the classic octal amps are pre humbucker!!!...single coil pup based tone


cheers

[darkwaters]

I own a '59 Supro Super, with the classic Fender Champ tube lineup of 12ax7, 6v6 and 5y3. It's a raging little beast, but I found it to be a bit of a one trick pony as a result. My solution was to replace the 12ax7 with a 12ay7. Problem solved. Now it will do fat and clean or raging beast and all points in between. I'm not familiar with octal tubes, but I'd think the 6SN7 is probably the way to go. Be prepared, though, for a volume drop.

[Herbie]

And don’t forget the Eminence Custom Shop. Some one here reminded that they will make for example a 4ohm version of Your favourite Emi 10” speaker that is sold in 8ohm.

Custom Shop | Eminence Speaker