Fender Stratocaster for Jazz?

[Greentone]

I agree with everything you say except that Wes didn't get a muddy sound. On most of his albums his sound is bright because of the corn or callus on his right thumb.

[shamu1]

I agree with everything you say except that Wes didn't get a muddy sound. On most of his albums his sound is bright because of the corn or callus on his right thumb.

True, he definitely had a nice clear sound, but on that one album "Guitar On the Go", it sounds like there was a pillow covering up the mic on his guitar. Granted it may have been the recording rather than Wes, but I don't like the sound of the guitar on that one recording.

[Greentone]

You are correct..."Guitar on the Go," Montgomery's last Riverside album, does sound somewhat muffled to me, too. I went back and listened to the whole album. Hadn't done so in years. I do concentrate on Wes' Riverside output, rather than his later, Verve, output, but I tend to listen more to 'Boss Guitar,' 'Portrait of Wes,' 'So Much Guitar,' and 'The Incredible Guitar of Wes Montgomery.' On those albums Wes gets a nice, bright tone, IMO.

[Minte]

I use a strat all the time. I play contemporary jazz, aka: Russ Freeman, Larry Carlton, Craig Chaquico etc..my favorite strat is the 3rd from the left in the back row. A Custom Shop 54' reissue NOS. The big beefy neck feels real good. And it sounds amazing through my 65' Twin Reverb.

[docbop]

I don't like strat's for Jazz only have heard two that I like the old Jimmy Smith video I apologize I don't remember the name of the guitarist excellent player. The second is Chris Crocco he plays a stock 90's strat with the Lace Sensor pickups and vol and tone all the way up. Now a strat with a hard tail should sound good, but the cavity in the body and the vibrato adds a plinkiness to the sound and just rolling off the tone sound dull to me. I say use a tele or get a hard tail strat.

[Flyin' Brian]

I don't like strat's for Jazz only have heard two that I like the old Jimmy Smith video I apologize I don't remember the name of the guitarist excellent player. The second is Chris Crocco he plays a stock 90's strat with the Lace Sensor pickups and vol and tone all the way up. Now a strat with a hard tail should sound good, but the cavity in the body and the vibrato adds a plinkiness to the sound and just rolling off the tone sound dull to me. I say use a tele or get a hard tail strat.

Quentin Warren

Also:

[docbop]

Quentin Warren

Also:

Sounds nice I'm guessing he's got a light touch I watched that and another video of his and couple times he digs in it was more strat-ish. His sound is a little thin for my taste like to hear him with heavier set of strings, but I do like the clarity he's getting. Like his playing thanks for posting.

[Flyin' Brian]

Sounds nice I'm guessing he's got a light touch I watched that and another video of his and couple times he digs in it was more strat-ish. His sound is a little thin for my taste like to hear him with heavier set of strings, but I do like the clarity he's getting. Like his playing thanks for posting.

Here he is with Chet Baker...of course we really don't know what he's playing but there's some wonderful things happening.

[shamu1]

I love Strats, but I agree that the Telecaster is a better jazz guitar, at least for me. Not a lot better, but slightly better. It has a thicker, meatier sound than a Strat, and I like that for jazz.

[Playerizor]

I play jazz on a strat. I don't accept the notion that a guitar jazz tone has to be dark and muddy just because that was typical in the past.

[oldane]

I play jazz on a strat. I don't accept the notion that a guitar jazz tone has to be dark and muddy just because that was typical in the past.

I agree, though I don't think it was so typical in the past. Just think of Charlie Christian, Barney Kessel, Oscar Moore, Tiny Grimes, Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Grant Green, Skeeter Best etc. None of them had muddy tones. Some who comes to mind having a dark and muddy tone are Jim Hall (after he replaced the P90 on his 175 with a HB) , Pat Metheny (sometimes) and Wes (on the some of the early Pacific records and also a few of the later ones). But they are a minority.

IMHO, a Strat with the right setup can have a great jazz tone. For one thing, the neck PU is placed just right to get that warm and rich tone (NOT the same as dark and muddy!) we associate with jazz guitar.

[Playerizor]

I agree, though I don't think it wasn't so typical in the past. Just think of Charlie Christian, Barney Kessel, Oscar Moore, Tiny Grimes, Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Grant Green, Skeeter Best etc. None of them had muddy tones. Some who comes to mind having a dark and muddy tone are Jim Hall (after he replaced the P90 on his 175 with a HB) , Pat Metheny (sometimes) and Wes (on the some of the early Pacific records and also a few of the later ones). But they are a minority.

IMHO, a Strat with the right setup can have a great jazz tone. For one thing, the neck PU is placed just right to get that warm and rich tone (NOT the same as dark and muddy!) we associate with jazz guitar.

My use of the word muddy might have been a bit harsh. I just get frustrated by some of these guys that believe the ONLY jazz tone is a tone that was created 50 years ago.

[docbop]

I play jazz on a strat. I don't accept the notion that a guitar jazz tone has to be dark and muddy just because that was typical in the past.

Dark and muddy are two different things. To me muddy is lack of note definition and to me more common with people that roll off the tone control on guitar and amp. Also early Jazz guitarist weren't that dark because of the CC and P90 style pickups. Sound got darker when the humbucker was introduced. Things continued to get dark as improvement in amps and speaker got better. Also I attribute some of the dark sound to record producers trying to make Jazz records to pull in the Pop market. The took the edge off of the sound to be the smooth jazz of the day especially with Cool Jazz came cool timbre in the mix.

For great example of bright guitar sound in earlier jazz check out Grant Green he loved a bright sound. For me the sound like is a full sound has bottom end, still has and enough brightness for clarity, but not rockish or jangly.

[mr. beaumont]

I harp on this a lot but...

A lot of those classic jazz tones are a lot brighter than people think. Sometimes I think thete's not a lot of listening going on and more passing "information" by heresay.

[destinytot]

Dave Cliff (UK):

[Jimmy Mack]

Mr. b has an extremely valid point there: A lot of those classic jazz tones are a lot brighter than people think. Sometimes I think thete's not a lot of listening going on and more passing "information" by heresay.

I was at a major guitar show once, someone recommended that I check out a new jazz guitar maker, don't remember his name. His instruments were fabulous. Heaven to hold and play. He suggested that I plug one of them into an amp to fully appreciate the guitar.

He didn't have an amp, so he said I should plug into the guy's amp across the way. The guy across the way was a jazz amp spkr. cab maker. Won't mention his name.

So there I am, digging this guitar, playing my best stuff (and I know a few things about playing guitar). Tone is great, guitar is great. The guy who is making the cabinets comes over, and, while I'm playing !!!!! turns the tone on the amp way down, and says some thing like : "there, that oughta get you there" !!!! Like......who asked you - you deaf jerk.
I'm sitting there now with MUD coming from this beautiful guitar!

These guys not only turned me way off, but lost potential $$$.

The point is: who is to say what something should sound like? I had a great tone going. I like Wes, and GB, so I was not bright , but expressive, warm, clear and a bit funky. IOW: my tone

[Greentone]

Yeah...classic jazz tones are brighter than people acknowledge. Also, jazz is most assuredly about vocabulary. You can play jazz on ANY guitar.

[SamBooka]

I have a great sounding strat... just ooozes strat tones. That said.. I cant get an inspiring jazz tone out of it (but it will do everything else great).

That said.. I watched the DVD Solo Flight: The Genius of Charlie Christian this week and there is a VERY brief clip with Eldon Shamblin playing a strat.... sounds pretty tasty.

[shamu1]

Yeah...classic jazz tones are brighter than people acknowledge. Also, jazz is most assuredly about vocabulary. You can play jazz on ANY guitar.

Amen to that. Yeah, like someone should have told Charlie Byrd you can't play jazz on an acoustic.

I even play jazz on my Gibson SG, which hardly anyone considers to be a typical jazz guitar. Granted, I don't play it as much as the Strat, but it sounds great playing jazz.

If you've got jazz in your soul and in your fingers, any guitar is a jazz guitar. I do wish more big name jazz players played Strats, though.

I'm waiting to see someone play traditional jazz on a Flying V.

[Patrick2]

Amen to that. Yeah, like someone should have told Charlie Byrd you can't play jazz on an acoustic.

I even play jazz on my Gibson SG, which hardly anyone considers to be a typical jazz guitar. Granted, I don't play it as much as the Strat, but it sounds great playing jazz.

If you've got jazz in your soul and in your fingers, any guitar is a jazz guitar. I do wish more big name jazz players played Strats, though.

I'm waiting to see someone play traditional jazz on a Flying V.

Well, jazz blues is traditional jazz too!!

[ChrisDowning]

Ha - of course if you ask us guitarists to comment on 'correct' sax , cornet, trombone, jazz tone, then we might all be a whole lot more circumspect and less opinionated.

[Frethack]

If you've got jazz in your soul and in your fingers, any guitar is a jazz guitar. I do wish more big name jazz players played Strats, though.

I'm waiting to see someone play traditional jazz on a Flying V.

I saw that. Not professionally though. My guitar teacher years back would just grab anything off the used wall, tune it, and belt out the most amazing stuff. Flying V, Steve Vai 7string, SG, PRS, you name it. He didn't care. A guitar was a tool. Nothing more. He owned some nice stuff for gigs, but at the store it was whatever made sound. It was kind of funny for me becuase at the time I thought you should only play certain styles on certain guitars. Now I know better.

[Flyin' Brian]

I saw that. Not professionally though. My guitar teacher years back would just grab anything off the used wall, tune it, and belt out the most amazing stuff. Flying V, Steve Vai 7string, SG, PRS, you name it. He didn't care. A guitar was a tool. Nothing more. He owned some nice stuff for gigs, but at the store it was whatever made sound. It was kind of funny for me becuase at the time I thought you should only play certain styles on certain guitars. Now I know better.

We guitar players often get locked into focusing on "gear" way too much.

I know that I quote Metheny way too much but he always seems to make sense.

"I’ve gone through different thinking about that (gear). Certainly there were years when I was really concerned about the string, the pick, the guitar, until I realized that those are minor elements.

It’s like asking a guy who just built a house, “Which hammer did you use? Was that a Gibson or a Fender hammer?” The truth is it really doesn’t matter. In my case, I would say 98% of it is conceptual.

This was brought home when I was on tour in the former Soviet Union in the 1980s. I wanted to have my own stuff, my amp, my everything. Then I was thrown into a situation where I had to play on a stage in front of lots of people with a beat-up guitar and an old amp.

That night I went back to my room and there I was playing on TV and I realized it sounded the same. It really doesn’t have to do with the stuff, it is more about the conceptual part of music."

I realize that he has used and uses more "stuff" than many players, but I believe that what he's saying is that if it's not in service of the music, it doesn't count, and that ultimately we sound like ourselves no matter what.

[ChrisDowning]

Flying Brian - +1. Like what's the best vehicle to take your stuff to and from the gig? I'm sure we could start a whole new thread based on which brand and what model. Something reliable is probably the answer to all questions (?).

Interestingly, most pro players I have met over the years years seem to turn up with the guitar that goes with them on air trips and an amp that is borrowed on the night, and then another set-up which is their gear they transport by car/van to the gig (local gigs) - better guitar and their own amp. And the, studio/home/photo session, equipment that's their best stuff for the least risky environment.

But what I have also noticed is pros have great cases - Hiscox and Carltons - that are top of the range stuff. Nobody travels much with a standard case. So budgetting for a great case may change your guitar choice if you gig and travel a lot.

So for travelling, a solid guitar is easier and more 'bomb proof'. So if you take that on board it becomes a choice of Tele, Strat, SG, Firebird, PRS, etc. for your long distance gigging guitar. Fenders are the easiest to repair regarding finding someone to do the work - so pick the Strat or Tele according to which you feel is more comfortable to play and there's part of the answer.

For me, the Strat is Leo Fender's second go and deluxe version of the Tele - it's more comforable to play and better balanced in the hands. So I kept the Tokai 1984 version of a vintage Fender (the Tokai had some SD Alnico 2 replacements thatsounded very sweet as well). The Tele was an easier sell as well and if I had kept it I would have wanted those alnico PUs installed again and I could have never fixed the neck with thise big frets (the Tokai has retro small frets which are great to play and a dream to slide and bend chords). I have the trem blocked with a piece of oak - so no issues there.... ... ...

Stratocaster or Telecaster?? - - its a really close call IMO. If you want more flexibility in how the guitar is going to get used earning a living, the Srat probably wins out as it has more gigging applications and more sounds - especially if you start to change the PUs for stuff like the Lollar Charlie Christian or a Seth Lover hum-bucker in the neck position and a rail in the middle or bridge like Mike Stern.

[blues442]

let me see your jazz strats. i am deciding how i should go about giving my stratocaster a better jazz sound and i need ideas. what are some good jazz sounding pickups that will be a good fit for a strat? sorry if this threads been started.