Seeking advice on FRFR cabs

**jzucker** · 03-12-2018, 03:04 PM

NOTE - This post is an inquiry about cabinet systems for modeling preamps, not which modeling preamp should I get...

I am using a fractal AX8.

It seems that most of the requests I read on the gear forums are from guys looking for the thump of big 4x12 cabs and are playing low tuned metal or classic rock stuff.

I'm a jazz guitarist playing primarily Pat Metheny/Adam Rogers/Kurt Rosenwinkel as well as fusion stuff like Holdsworth/Scott Henderson and I also do some blues/rock playing but that's not a primary requirement.

I have been using the Alto TS210A cabs and they sound great for everything except when I'm playing with a really loud drummer and at extreme volumes, I think I'm getting some speaker compression from pushing those 10s a bit too hard. I have experienced the same thing with analog amps using 2x10s vs. 2x12 and was never really happy with a 2x10 cab for that situation.
Many of the clubs I play at do not have a house system and the ones that do, I end up with a much brighter sound than what comes out of the Altos so I'm not 100% happy with using the house system.

So, I'm thinking of upgrading to either the Alto 212A cabs or switching to xitone/atomic.
In the early days of my setup, i bought an atomic neo wedge but I felt it was a bit pre-disposed to heavier tones and didn't have the transparent cleans that I was looking for with Metheny-esque stuff so I ended up selling it.

But I'm willing to revisit and wondering if there's anyone else out there playing clean tones with heavy strings that could comment on my variation of what I'm looking for?

**Michael Kaye** · 03-12-2018, 04:48 PM

Well in my opinion, Jack, you're on the right track. - more speakers. I don't know of a more effective way to compete with the way drums project. Let's face it, if you've played live, you pretty much know that the drummer drives stage volume. The rest of us compete in that sonic spectrum and nothing kills guitar tone more than a loud drummer, in my opinion. That's been true for any genre for me. Especially the cymbal wash which can strip your highs right out. The other thing that helps is separation, either being away from the drummer or, splitting your cabs up with a wide spread physically - it gives you a bigger source of sound. I don't have much experience with different cabs so I can't help much there. But if you're happy with the tone, just add speakers. Oh, and get some 7As or brushes for your drummer!

**jzucker** · 03-12-2018, 06:00 PM

Brushes are not the answer. We are doing original "hard jazz" tunes and playing concert material rather than background or restaurant material. The drummer in my group is great and I wouldn't dream of asking him to "turn down" !

Originally Posted by Michael Kaye

Well in my opinion, Jack, you're on the right track. - more speakers. I don't know of a more effective way to compete with the way drums project. Let's face it, if you've played live, you pretty much know that the drummer drives stage volume. The rest of us compete in that sonic spectrum and nothing kills guitar tone more than a loud drummer, in my opinion. That's been true for any genre for me. Especially the cymbal wash which can strip your highs right out. The other thing that helps is separation, either being away from the drummer or, splitting your cabs up with a wide spread physically - it gives you a bigger source of sound. I don't have much experience with different cabs so I can't help much there. But if you're happy with the tone, just add speakers. Oh, and get some 7As or brushes for your drummer!

**Rufes** · 03-12-2018, 06:01 PM

One thing is having a great tone playing alone and another thing is cutting well through the mix. Maybe the tone you like is not well placed sonically with the band. Most of the times the problem is not the volume but the eq.

I would say according to your words that you are scooping the mids.

On the other hand, that's the magic of tubes vs ss. Tubes take more spectrum and you hear yourself way way better at lower volume.

**rob taft** · 03-12-2018, 06:15 PM

Jack, The FRFR speaker du jour on the Kemper forum is the Michael Britt Xitone cab. One thing I liked about this cab is the ability to open the back. That said, I own a earlier version of the Atomic CLR and if my memory serves me, you had that before your latest AxFx amp. So if the Xitone isn't your bag, you might want to revisit the CLR. From what I understand the only difference between the MKI CLR Neo and the MKII CLR Neo is a larger heat sink.

Michael Britt 12″ open/closed back cab – XiTone Cabs

**jzucker** · 03-12-2018, 06:26 PM

nope, not scooping the mids at all as you can hear in this clip. Just clean tone, not a lot of bottom end.

Originally Posted by Rufes

One thing is having a great tone playing alone and another thing is cutting well through the mix. Maybe the tone you like is not well placed sonically with the band. Most of the times the problem is not the volume but the eq.

I would say according to your words that you are scooping the mids.

On the other hand, that's the magic of tubes vs ss. Tubes take more spectrum and you hear yourself way way better at lower volume.

**jzucker** · 03-12-2018, 06:29 PM

I know that's the rave over at TGP and the various modeling forums but 90% of those guys are playing detuned metal stuff and the other 10% are playing classic rock. There are very few samples of guys playing jazz and even fewer doing the kind of stuff I do which ranges from metheny to rogers to holdsworth. And the Britt cab is almost 50lbs. One of the reasons I switched to digital is to save my back so I'm not so keen on getting back into a 50lb cabinet, especially when I'll need to haul 2 of them.

I may check out the CLR again. When I was originally looking they were $1300 but I think they are down to $999. They seem to be about 10lbs less than the xitone wedge.

But again, the guys making raves about them are mostly djent players, lol.

I may just buy the 12" version of the alto. I think a pair of those or possibly adding the 3rd cab for those louder gigs might be another possibility.

Originally Posted by rob taft

Jack, The FRFR speaker du jour on the Kemper forum is the Michael Britt Xitone cab. One thing I liked about this cab is the ability to open the back. That said, I own a earlier version of the Atomic CLR and if my memory serves me, you had that before your latest AxFx amp. So if the Xitone isn't your bag, you might want to revisit the CLR. From what I understand the only difference between the MKI CLR Neo and the MKII CLR Neo is a larger heat sink.

Michael Britt 12? open/closed back cab – XiTone Cabs

**Michael Kaye** · 03-12-2018, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Brushes are not the answer......The drummer in my group is great and I wouldn't dream of asking him to "turn down" !

sorry. I should have made it clear that was a joke.

**fep** · 03-12-2018, 07:33 PM

You might reach out to Peter Sprague. I don't know which model he's using but the brand he uses is QSC powered speakers and goes direct from modeler. He's a popular jazz guitarist in San Diego.

**jzucker** · 03-12-2018, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by fep

You might reach out to Peter Sprague. I don't know which model he's using but the brand he uses is QSC powered speakers and goes direct from modeler. He's a popular jazz guitarist in San Diego.

Peter's a great player! His music is probably not as loud as the stuff I'm doing though. Plus the QSC version of the alto monitor I'm currently using is not all that different though it's 10lbs heavier!

There's not a huge difference in audio quality between the alto TS212a and the QSC K12.2 IMO.

**Michael Kaye** · 03-12-2018, 10:07 PM

The QSCs are stereo. 2 amps per cab 500watts each

**jzucker** · 03-12-2018, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Michael Kaye

The QSCs are stereo. 2 amps per cab 500watts each

[edit]

I just checked the specs and it's not stereo. Yes it has 2 inputs but they are not running into separate power amps.

K12.2 - QSC K.2 Series™ [New] - Powered Loudspeakers - Loudspeakers - Products - Live Sound - QSC

**MikeTT** · 03-12-2018, 10:33 PM

I went back to guitar cabs and a small power amp (the new Seymour duncan class D thing). I tried various FRFR and liked the Atomic the most. But even with that it never "felt" right for live sound (where the sound only comes from the player's rig, no PA.).
So, not really helpful;-) (But I think there are quite a lot pf players for whom the FRFR just doesn't work (yet). Depends maybe for how long you played with guitar cabs in the past).

**jzucker** · 03-12-2018, 10:38 PM

Thanks Mike.

Frankly, I never got the whole FRFR thing because guitar speakers cut off very quickly at around 5k so it never made sense to me to have a FRFR cab where your crossover was between 500hz and 2k. One some of the FRFR cabs, the mid horn is "seeing" the majority of the guitar frequency band which may explain why it doesn't sound good at higher volume pressure.

In my case, I would prefer not to have to go back to carrying a separate amp but I'd consider it if I could find a decent NEO 12" speaker that doesn't cause ear fatigue. I haven't heard one yet that I liked.

**Michael Kaye** · 03-13-2018, 01:29 AM

Sorry Jack, you're right. I should correct my own post. There are 2 drivers 500 watts each for Low freq and High freq. these are version 1s too. I run 2 of them in stereo.

The new ones that just came out are 1800 watts for Low Freq and 225 watts for High frequency (I don't know the crossover point). They seem more for DJ. I don't think guitar players need all that low frequency power so I don't see any advantage to the new versions but technically the version 1s are 1000w continuous power each.

**whiskey02** · 03-13-2018, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

nope, not scooping the mids at all as you can hear in this clip. Just clean tone, not a lot of bottom end.

Off topic: Jack, I notice you are holding your guitar a good bit lower than before; is this to accommodate a change in technique, a response to injury/back issue? Reason I ask is I've been experimenting myself, found some things more comfortable to play just by dropping down a few inches.

**jzucker** · 03-13-2018, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by whiskey02

Off topic: Jack, I notice you are holding your guitar a good bit lower than before; is this to accommodate a change in technique, a response to injury/back issue? Reason I ask is I've been experimenting myself, found some things more comfortable to play just by dropping down a few inches.

I've always had it at this height with the Kessel. It wasn't a deliberate move but I found that with the bigger body, it felt better at this height. I never even noticed until you mentioned it but I now realize that my 175 sized seventy seven sits much higher.

**eeglug** · 03-13-2018, 05:32 PM

FWIW, I play in a rock band with a TS212 and I keep its volume knob at about 1/2 way. My current chain is guitar to Yamaha DG Stomp to Alto mixer to TS212. I have the mixer because I also do occasional backing vocals; the mixer output volume is nowhere near cranked either. IOW, I would hope the TS212 would give you plenty of horsepower.

**jzucker** · 03-13-2018, 06:49 PM

I'm thinking about either getting a pair of Xitone or CLR/NEO cabs or maybe just "cheaping it out" with a pair of TS212s.

When dealing with loud bands, I've always found that I needed at least a 2x12 cab so I think it's reasonable to assume that a pair of 212A cabs would give me that additional coverage. I think the 12 moves some more air and is will work less hard to get the sound amount of sound pressure.

I'm just debating whether to drop the additional coin in the boutique cab vs the alto.

Xitone

Originally Posted by eeglug

FWIW, I play in a rock band with a TS212 and I keep its volume knob at about 1/2 way. My current chain is guitar to Yamaha DG Stomp to Alto mixer to TS212. I have the mixer because I also do occasional backing vocals; the mixer output volume is nowhere near cranked either. IOW, I would hope the TS212 would give you plenty of horsepower.

**feet** · 03-13-2018, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I've always had it at this height with the Kessel. It wasn't a deliberate move but I found that with the bigger body, it felt better at this height. I never even noticed until you mentioned it but I now realize that my 175 sized seventy seven sits much higher.

apropos of little, this is why i am afraid of custom length guitar straps. always wanted some nice leather ones, but, you know. things change. and accommodating acoustics and hollowbodies and praying i never gain weight... just seems risky.

and as a mild segue, maybe look into what the acoustic folks are using? i do thing the qsc's are fairly popular, but there are a lot of things they use, like the line 6 pa thing. and there is an interesting split between traditional pa's, (acoustic) guitar amps and line array or hybrid approaches. i would think that any of those subcategories would be worth a peek, since you are after reproduction, and not production, as it were.

for what it is worth, i have tried acoustics, electrics and hollowbodies through both my acoustic and line array amp with surprisingly decent results, and they take effects well. whether they have enough horsepower for your needs (at the weight and price point) is a different story, though. depends, i suppose.

**marcwhy** · 03-13-2018, 10:05 PM

Try a Sonusphere. If you're playing stereo, two of the G-18s would be pretty loud. [I have a B-18 for my bass -- interesting concept that certainly seems to work!]

**jzucker** · 03-14-2018, 06:24 AM

My rig sounds amazing for acoustic guitar. The requirements for great acoustic guitar sound and a cutting lead guitar sound (whether jazz or fusion) are quite a bit different. One of the issues with FRFR cabs is that the crossover often puts the majority of the guitar frequencies into the midrange driver which sounds harsh to my ears. The xitone cabs actually let the 12" or 10" speaker see their full frequency range which is probably why most people feel that those cabs have more of a guitar cab feel than your typical FRFR cab.

Originally Posted by feet

apropos of little, this is why i am afraid of custom length guitar straps. always wanted some nice leather ones, but, you know. things change. and accommodating acoustics and hollowbodies and praying i never gain weight... just seems risky.

and as a mild segue, maybe look into what the acoustic folks are using? i do thing the qsc's are fairly popular, but there are a lot of things they use, like the line 6 pa thing. and there is an interesting split between traditional pa's, (acoustic) guitar amps and line array or hybrid approaches. i would think that any of those subcategories would be worth a peek, since you are after reproduction, and not production, as it were.

for what it is worth, i have tried acoustics, electrics and hollowbodies through both my acoustic and line array amp with surprisingly decent results, and they take effects well. whether they have enough horsepower for your needs (at the weight and price point) is a different story, though. depends, i suppose.

**jzucker** · 03-14-2018, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by marcwhy

Try a Sonusphere. If you're playing stereo, two of the G-18s would be pretty loud. [I have a B-18 for my bass -- interesting concept that certainly seems to work!]

Those look very cool but for the loud jazz i'm playing in my current band I think I want a 12" speakers and a bigger cab to give me more of a backline amp feel.

**Meggy** · 03-14-2018, 08:05 AM

For what it's worth - this just came up on one of the Helix facebook groups - looks near identical to the Alto TS212, so must be the same manufacturer, but seems to have more watts: Headrush FRFR-112 2000-watt 1x12" Powered Guitar Cabinet | Sweetwater

**jzucker** · 03-14-2018, 09:00 AM

I saw that. Power is not the issue. I am not close to maxing out the available power on my TS210a. It's not clear what the real differences are on this (if any ) from the altos...

Perhaps a bigger speaker and power amp? At any rate, more significant difference would be the abiltity to change the crossover point and or turn off the tweeter like you can on the Atomic and Xitone...

Originally Posted by Meggy

For what it's worth - this just came up on one of the Helix facebook groups - looks near identical to the Alto TS212, so must be the same manufacturer, but seems to have more watts: Headrush FRFR-112 2000-watt 1x12" Powered Guitar Cabinet | Sweetwater