-
Hi. I'm not promising this as if I am some technician. But I looks like I might be right. I have begun tuning my low E by its 2nd harmonic, the overtone at the 5th fret instead of open or at the 12th fret. Now here's the oddity of it:You can get this E harm. to be dead center on your electronic tuner. So, since it IS an E of the E string, not a 5th or 4th, we accept the string as to be in tune due to this. BUT, now the open E shows flat by several cents. Why, not sure. Perhaps something to do with the girth of the string or its winding. But now that it's showing to be flat, if pressed gently the F is now IN tune (+-). An open E maj chord sounds fine and most everything else relying on the 6th string. Now the F chord (say, Fmaj7 ) is not or very close to not being sharp. Yes I realize the main cause in the first place of the sharp F is this fat string being bent down to the fingerboard, the depth of its nut slot bottom. But since we have little to no alternative here, check out if it works for you. Again, the fact that the 2nd harmonic is a pure E makes it good enough for me to rely on...M
Last edited by MarkInLA; 03-14-2018 at 05:39 PM.
-
03-14-2018 12:58 AM
-
-
File the nut, or get a zero fret, try changing string tension / gauge, or try not to press to hard on the early frets...
-
Check out Buzz Feltin for nut offsets. I never tune to open strings or harmonics anyway, depending on the tune, or the guitar, I find tuning to often used notes on each of the strings usually yields a better "average"... You should be aware of the Pythagorean Comma which explains why Maj 3rds are actually meant to be a little flatter (in fact, most intervals should be a little flatter or sharper than equal temperment ). Nut offsets and fret 'leaning" can also help, but with so many variables, it's sometimes better to just choose a good guitar with a good neck, get the nut, bridge, neck and action correctly adjusted with the right strings for your technique, and experiment with tuning templates that average out all the notes you're using the best you can.
Oh yeah, don't forget that technique changes everything! Striking too hard, or pressing too hard with your fret hand can make you sound 20 cents sharper than another player using the same guitar. On the plus side, at least most Jazz guitarists don't have to worry about the compounding tuning issues that distortion creates!
So when you hear "that's close enough for Jazz!", they usually mean it's not close enough for Rock! 
-
Compensated nut.
-
How about the Martin Taylor tunininin ininin inn
This works for me!
Now I have found (for my ears) that intonating is a problematic thing. Many thoughts on the subject.
I set intonation at the 12th then tweak the 19th fret harmonic in. Inininin in inn.
Here's a thought: If most tunes come in at Bb, tune in the string set for 5th to 12th frets. Ignore the low F.
-
I have Earvana nuts on both my Tele and Strat partscasters. I also have one on my Epi Casino Coupe. I like them. They do what they are advertised to do and are easy to install. I don't have them all of my guitars though. A guitar like my Gibson ES-390 has a well made nut on it and I would be a fool to mess with it.
Originally Posted by icr
-
The nut height is right in all my guitars, so I don't notice the forementioned undesirable effect .
My #1 actually has an Earvana nut. Works exactly as advertised.Last edited by LtKojak; 03-15-2018 at 03:24 PM.
-
Yes. The 6 was a typo !
-
I tend to tune to the 5th fret. I play a lot in Ab, Bb, Eb, and F, so that's a reasonable compromise. I've heard about Earvana nuts, but never tried one. If the low F is always sharp, I blame the height of the nut slot before anything else. If the nut is cut properly, the F shouldn't be very sharp, but some players are pickier than others about intonation. Nobody has yet produced a guitar that intonates perfectly everywhere, and I don't think that's possible with the current physics. Compromises must be made somewhere.
-
I don't know why but they seem to work better for me on 25.5" scale guitars. I may even go back to stock on my Epi. Originally Posted by sgosnell
-
I have a guitar I need to put a compensated nut on. Looks as simple as filing the leading edge on a nut to look something like the Earvana product then deal with the rest with bridge position.
-
It doesn't quite work that way. My 2 cents as unsophisticated as they are: Originally Posted by Spook410
1) There is no substitute for a properly cut nut made out of good material. String height, vertical and lateral break angles, knife edge position, etc. are all things that someone that is good at cutting nuts can take into account to get the best intonation possible. I cannot cut nuts.
2) Compensated bridges allow for intonation adjustments based on string length alone. The low E string might intonate best at 25.55" for a 25.5" scale guitar while the D string might intonate better at 25.45". The adjustment is partly based on string gauges.
3) The combination of a compensated bridge and compensated nut allow for intonation adjustments based on string length relative to the fret positions. So, the low E string may actually intonate best at 25.5" for a 25.5" scale guitar but the knife edge positions of the string at the nut and bridge may be shifted relative to the fret positions that you would see in #2 above.
4) Sometimes people say that once you fret a note you lose the effect of having a compensated nut. That is not true. Keeping in mind #2 and #3 above, an illustration would be if you took two identical guitars - one with a straight cut nut and one with a compensated nut. Tune both guitars for the best intonation possible. Then by magic exchange the nuts between the two guitars without changing anything else. No tuning changes, etc. (Remember I said "by magic.") Both guitars would then be out of tune. Having a compensated nut affects the tuning much the same way as James Taylor's tuning is different than, say, standard tuning. In other words, using a compensated nut, like an Earvana, you would still tune to the standard tuning. However, that standard tuning would be physically different than the standard tuning for a straight cut nut.
5) I use the Earvana shelf nuts, btw. The one in the picture above is a retrofit nut setup with little screws to attach the nut to a base. The shelf nuts drop right into nut slots with a little fiddling.
Hope this helps.
-
Here’s a nice overview of the function of compensated nuts. Originally Posted by lammie200
Ask the Luthier
I’m no luthier, but I’ll pontificate on the subject anyway and see if I learn anything from responses.
The purpose of compensation is to mitigate the sharpening of fretted notes due to increased tension as strings are stretched to the fret or fretboard. The increase in tension is a function of string gauge, string materials, bridge height, nut height (in the slots), neck relief, fret height, where the finger is located (e.g., on top of frets vs. midpoint between frets) and finger pressure. I think the main function of nut compensation is to improve intonation for the lowest few frets. But the article I posted suggests that if the other factors are controlled appropriately, nut compensation may not be necessary. Since string stretching is highly dependent on many other factors, the optimal nut compensation will be unique to each instrument, string choice and setup.
Bottom line — I’d only consider nut compensation if I’d already optimized all the other parameters and still wasn’t satisfied with intonation on the lowest few frets.Last edited by KirkP; 03-15-2018 at 02:17 PM.
-
I've been making my own bone nuts for awhile so that part should be OK. I've just never tried making one with compensation. I'm not real clear on how it's supposed to work once the string is fretted so I enter into the experiment with low expectations. However it's easy enough to try and I'd like to go from a TOM to wood bridge on the guitar in question.
-
I don't believe that current physics has anything to do with it. Tuning will always be a compromise. Equal temperament is certainly a compromise. Bach recognized this but was so pleased with it that he wrote a song cycle--the Well Tempered Clavier--to celebrate the development of tempered tuning.
On top of fudging the differences between mathematical intervals and what the ear perceives, however, you have nut issues, neck issues, fret issues, string gauge issues, and frankly the way that the guitarist mashes the strings--some people play more inherently out of tune than others do (on the same instrument).
Withal, working compromises can be found. John Previti (Danny Gatton's bassist) pointed out to me that Danny Gatton's ears wouldn't permit him to play out of tune. His hands constantly adjusted to the inaccuracies of his Telecaster. I watched him carefully as he sat across the table from me and played. Darned if Gatton didn't do exactly as Previti said: DG would mash, twist, lighten up, etc., as he went along--adjusting the guitar to what his ears heard. The Telecaster played astonishingly in tune for him. I was humbled as I watched DG do this up and down the neck, quite unconsciously, as he warmed up for a gig.
-
Well Temperament and Equal temperament are different beasts. Originally Posted by Greentone
Well v.s. equal temperament
-
I agree. From the article that points toward what an Earvana does, however: Originally Posted by KirkP
Greg Byers did extensive mathematical modeling of string compensation, which yielded specific compensations for each string at the nut and saddle. To confirm the results of his theoretical model, he attached a fixed fretboard and movable "nut" and "bridge" sections to a long plank and moved the nut and bridge to find correct nut and saddle compensation. Each string is mounted on the device and the ends are adjusted until each fret and the open string read in tune; the distances to the nut and saddle are then measured and transferred to the instrument. This yields both staggered nut and saddle.
Byer's method results in individual compensation per string, an improvement over Gilbert's equal compensation.
-
The string will be tuned differently to begin with if both the nut and bridge are compensated versus if only the bridge is compensated. When a string is fretted the results will be different because of this. That is the purpose. Originally Posted by Spook410
It seems to work better on 25.5" scale lengths. Not much benefit with 24.75" scale lengths IMHO.
-
Were it not sinful then, striving to mend,
To mar the subject that before was well?
— Shakespeare, Sonnet 103
In other words, make sure the cure isn’t worse than the disease.
-
I am quite familiar with the notion that Bach "was referring to the ability to play in all keys," and that this was what he meant by "well tempered." Equal tempering the scale is what enabled guys like Bach to be able to play comfortably in all keys. Prior to tempering, by the time you got from the key of C to the key of B, things were grossly dissonant.
There were different schemes of tempering. Equal tempering is simply shoving equal amounts of dissonance (or beats) between intervals other than octaves (which are beatless). It has become the commonly adopted scale--including the one upon which the fretboard of the guitar is devised.
No matter what tempering system you use, intervals will always be compromises that exhibit aural tics (or beats) that the player can detect. If you really want to play out of tune, though, tune your guitar to some open cowboy chords--i.e., tune the thirds and fourths to be beatless. The guitar will really play sour out of that first position.
-
Ahh.. now I see. Thank you lammie. Originally Posted by lammie200
As for this being a solution in search of a problem, I do have a guitar that has been difficult to get right even with a TOM bridge. Everything measures to be correct. Nothing I can find is warped/bent. Took the nut slot on the offending B string low enough that I had to fix it (baking soda/cyanoacrylate). So time to try something different. If it doesn't work I am no worse off. Nuts are expendable.
-
Yes. Equal Temperament breaks each interval into equal intervals on a log scale to make intervals independent of key. It’s the best compromise if you want to be able to play in any key without retuning every time you modulate. That’s the quality that makes it a necessity for most modern music. Equal temperament may not be such a necessity for folk players if they stick to three chord shapes and a capo. Originally Posted by Greentone
-
My reference to "current physics" meant physics as we know it, and one would need new physical laws, probably in a new universe, to be able to tune a guitar while avoiding any compromises. Here in this universe, compromises are mandatory.
I just checked my Benedetto with a strobe tuner, and the difference between the open string and the fretted F note on the E string was about 0.2 cents, depending on how I fretted the note. I can make up the difference, or make it larger, just by putting slight pressure on the neck, even by just starting to turn the tuner button. I don't think I need a compensated nut.
-
Not sure what you mean but Im not talking about compensation at the nut. I'm just saying that for some physics reason, tuning using the 2nd harmonic (E over 5th fret), the open E reads flat by a few cents. So, when the F is needed, if you don't Squeeze too hard you can have a more in-tune if not exactly in tune, F. Plus I do think the 5th fret, E harm. is the more 'honest' of the two. (disclaimer: I fully realize these conditions might not be found on all guitars). M
Reply With Quote
Raney and Aebersold - Great Interview (1986)
Yesterday, 11:21 PM in Improvisation