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I hope to get some guidance from the huge amount of expertise among you forum members. I understand that guitar, amp, pickups, strings, picking, mics and more went into the definitive recorded sound. Not to mention CC himself! All of that said, I basically want to buy a cheaper guitar and put a CC pickup in it. I know the various CC pickup options. But what about the guitar? I was thinking of a Fender MIM Tele. But I have seen many attractive archtops discussed here. I play through a blackface Fender Deluxe Reverb, and I'm not going to change that now. I would have to spend less than $1,000 on the guitar. What do you think? Thanks.
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05-02-2018 09:16 PM
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Some of the CC sound comes from the recording technique back then. Everything else equal, what you'll hear out of an amp is not what comes out of your stereo when listening the old records.
A tele with a CC pu in the neck is a good way to begin to experiment with this, though some would claim that only an original 1930s Gibson ES150 complete with the amp it originally came with will do. Another option is to get a humbucker equipped laminated archtop and then swap the neck PU for a CC in humbucker mount.
I use a Vintage Vibe HCC with alnico II magnets in two of my guitars and couldn't be happier. Jason Lollar also makes a good CC in humbucker mount. But none of them sound exactly as an original 1930s CC PU.
As for the original CC PU, I have one (the 1938 edition with the notch in the blade under the B string) in an old Gibson L37 but I don't find it to be an optimal design. While the sound as such is great, the string to string volume balance is uneven and the screws of the mounts always works themselves loose so the shims under them buzz and rattle. It also hums a lot. I believe there can be sample variations due to the rather crude production techniques back then. In addition, the old cobalt magnets have lost some of their strength in the 80 years gone by since they were made.
A Fender blackface amp with its scooped midrange would not be the first amp I'd think about for mimicking CC's sound which has a lot of midrange honk in it. But it can no doubt be done with proper EQ'ing - maybe with a good EQ pedal if the amps tone stack is not enough. That said, Fender blackface amps sound great in their own right.
But why do you want to sound just like CC? Why don't you want to sound like yourself? Me, I love Wes Montgomerys playing and consider him maybe THE greatest jazz guitarist ever but I don't try to sound like him, not even remotely (not that I'm able to either
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Last edited by oldane; 05-03-2018 at 04:43 AM.
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oldane is SO right with his statement "what you are hearing out of your amp is not what you're hearing on record". And if it is, it's NOT the tone CC had. Between the early recording mediums and what TIME has done to them, none of us will ever truly hear what CC sounded like IN THE ROOM. We can only guesstimate.
As for CC pickups, there are alot of them out there that get into the ballpark I'm sure, even some that get very close. But to my knowledge, only one place on the planet is making repros with the cobalt magnets:
http://www.ccpickups.co.uk
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Thanks. I was thinking of the Vintage Vibe HCC. To be clear, I'm not trying to sound just like anybody in particular. I just wanted to get a sound that's generally in the CC neighborhood. I also know that my Fender amp isn't ideal. I will look into an EQ pedal. I guess more specifically I was thinking about Tele vs. archtop.
Originally Posted by oldane
Some of the CC sound comes from the recording technique back then. Everything else equal, what you'll hear out of an amp is not what comes out of your stereo when listening the old records.
A tele with a CC pu in the neck is a good way to begin to experiment with this, though some would claim that only an original 1930s Gibson ES150 complete with the amp it originally came with will do. Another option is to get a humbucker equipped laminated archtop and then swap the neck PU for a CC in humbucker mount.
I use a Vintage Vibe HCC with alnico II magnets in two of my guitars and couldn't be happier. Jason Lollar also makes a good CC in humbucker mount. But none of them sound exactly as an original 1930s CC PU.
As for the original CC PU, I have one (the 1938 edition with the notch in the blade under the B string) in an old Gibson L37 but I don't find it to be an optimal design. While the sound as such is great, the string to string volume balance is uneven and the screws of the mounts always works themselves loose so the shims under them buzz and rattle. It also hums a lot. I believe there can be sample variations due to the rather crude production techniques back then. In addition, the old cobalt magnets have lost some of their strength in the 80 years gone by since they were made.
A Fender blackface amp with its scooped midrange would not be the first amp I'd think about for mimicking CC's sound which has a lot of midrange honk in it. But it can no doubt be done with proper EQ'ing - maybe with a good EQ pedal if the amps tone stack is not enough. That said, Fender blackface amps sound great in their own right.
But why do you want to sound just like CC? Why don't you want to sound like yourself? Me, I love Wes Montgomerys playing and consider him maybe THE greatest jazz guitarist ever but I don't try to sound like him, not even remotely (not that I'm able to either).
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To start, on the Fender amp turn the bass and treble to zero. You might be able to add bass up to 1 or maybe 2 at most, but start at zero. Nothing else will sound right with a Fender.
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Thanks. I will try that later today. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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I would think that the HCC in a laminate archtop would get you closer than a Tele. A mid-grade Ibanez, for example, would get you pretty close with the HCC IMHO.
The sustain of the Tele is a bit too much for approximating the CC sound. Now, I have a semi-hollow Tele with an HCC in it that sounds wonderful in its own right and is one of my very favorite sounding instruments- but it's more like a fat Ed Bickert than a Charlie Christian type sound.
I've also got a floating HCC on my archtop and it too sounds great. Much closer to the CC type sound but more modern, whatever that means. Maybe sort of a cross between CC and Pete Bernstein? Fred Archtop has some videos comparing various CC pickups and guitars including a real '38 ES-150. He plays great, well recorded and a great resource:
fred archtop - YouTube
Tim Lerch also has some videos with a CC pickup in a Tele as well as a wonderful blind comparison between different guitars (Teles, archtops, etc.) which makes it clear that we listen with our eyes.
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I have both options and I agree. Originally Posted by Cunamara
I put an HCC in a Semi-hollow G&L tribute tele clone. Both were new and the total cost was only around $750 including a (probably unnecessary) new harness and jack ... the combination sounds great and is very gig-worthy.
I also put an HCC (love that pickup) in an old 16" Maple laminate Guild. That combination also sounds really good to my ears with most amps, but really shines through either the old Princeton or the 5e3 Li'l Dawg. This is usually my first choice giggling guitar.
Neither sounds exactly like the old heavy 3-point mount CC, but the 3" deep laminate with the HCC is much closer. Put one in a reasonably priced guitar with a neck you like and you're in business!
- Joe
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Outside of the intangibles and studio production techniques, etc., the biggest things you need to get that Charlie Christian-style sound:
1) a hollowbody guitar, not a solid body or semi-.
2) full bar-magnet CC pickup
3) an octal-tube amp.
4) round wound monel or pure nickel strings - not flats
That said, a DeArmond FHC/Guitar Mic can work as well, and a Tweed amp is the next best thing to an Octal amp.
I have several friends that have put a UK-made CC pick up into a Loar LH600 or LH700 with great success. That would literally be the next best thing to an ES-150, outside of finding a good sounding flat-back 30's L-50 and doing the same thing.
I'm not particularly found of the sound of the Lollar CC, and I'm agnostic about the floating CC.
And I hate when I have to plug into blackface amps. They just don't deliver the tone I'm looking for.
I recently picked up a Nocturne Brain "Junior Barnyard" pedal, and I was impressed with its ability to give octal character to a neutral solid-state amp. I haven't had the chance to give it a full test, and really play with the settings, but that pedal is definitely something that could get you some of the CC character with your Deluxe Reverb. Otherwise, I regularly play a Vintage '47 VA-185G, which is a Valco octal circuit modded to have the character of an EH-185. It's a great amp, and it's light weight and tone lead me to bring it to most of my gigs at this point, even though I've got a great 1939 EH-185 at home.
Lastly, the tone of Charlie Christian is very much part and parcel of his preference for downstrokes, sort of like gypsy picking. And tone aside, it help give the syncopated character that is specific to Charlie.
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Thanks for your excellent insight. I will check out Fred Archtop, am familiar with some of Tim Lerch's videos. What qualifies as a mid-grade Ibanez? My background is solid-body and am early on the jazz journey. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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THANK YOU!!!!!! It's unbelievable, on all the guitar forums, how many guys, when answering the general question "how to sound more jazzy", "how to get that old/dark jazz tone", and even specifically "how to sound like CC".... recommend FLATS!! Like flats are the answer. Your article on the subject should be REQUIRED READING for all jazz/CC fans.... Originally Posted by campusfive
SO MANY people automatically think "flats must have come before rounds, because flats give the dark/smooth tone I hear on all the old recordings"... I've seen it (mistakenly) "reported" many times on forums "everybody played flats back then"
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Thanks. I have some options to pursue among hollow bodies. Would something like an Ibanez Artcore AF75 qualify as a good guitar for this or is it poor quality? I am willing to spend more, just checking. I know little about hollow bodies personally, but have learned a lot here. Originally Posted by AlohaJoe
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I had a Godin 5th Avenue acoustic with a Vintage Vibe (Pete Biltoft) floating CC pickup. I would recommend the Godin 5th Avenue over any Ibanez if you're after a more 'old-school' kind of sound.
Original CC pickups were wound with 38 gauge wire. Most of Pete's CC pickups are wound with 42 gauge for a sound that's more in the direction of a P-90. I asked for mine to be wound with 38 gauge. CC pickups contrary to what most people think aren't actually tremendously 'fat' sounding as such - a lot of that came from the very mid-heavy amps of the day and the fact that on the recordings from the era, a lot of top end (and bottom end) just isn't there. They're a lot more transparent than most people realise.
My Godin with this pickup with the tiniest amount of amp break up sounded to my ears very much like the 'CC sound'.
CC pickups are also great for rhythm playing - you can actually do four to the bar comping for example, and it doesn't sound like a muddy mess like a humbucker does.
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Guys and gals, this will sound snotty. But It's not meant that way. It's just an outside the box (literally!) response and does not mean anyone's posts are bad... So: To me all the talk about achieving someone else's sound is silly.. They who you refer to didn't do that. They did what they liked to do. Tal wasn't trying for Wes's sound. Wes was not trying for Pizarelli's sound. Ellis was not trying for Kessel's sound, yadda yadda. Find a sound that you like, change the mix a bit here and there, and fuggeddaboudit !! With luck someone in the future may very well be trying to get your sound !! Dig ?..Find a reputable pickup (the floating DeArmond on my $500 Gretsch NYer is clear and warm through my $65 Acoustic 10"...What's the prob ? I set the tone on the amp and it's fine...
Another thought: Why is any jazz group (harmfully) loud ? It's modern chamber music, not glam rock.. If you are fighting to be heard, the group is too loud..You need to hear one another plus not blast out the audience ..If you do like it loud maybe you'd be better off in a fusion, funk, or rock group...Again, I mean no negativity toward you guys. And I don't play guitar as well as many of you. It's meant as a friendly gesture, not a rant .. M
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What does loudness have to do with anything? What jazz bands that you saw are too loud? I personally have not seen such a thing. Originally Posted by MarkInLA
Guys and gals, this will sound snotty. But It's not meant that way. It's just an outside the box (literally!) response and does not mean anyone's posts are bad... So: To me all the talk about achieving someone else's sound is silly.. They who you refer to didn't do that. They did what they liked to do. Tal wasn't trying for Wes's sound. Wes was not trying for Pizarelli's sound. Ellis was not trying for Kessel's sound, yadda yadda. Find a sound that you like, change the mix a bit here and there, and fuggeddaboudit !! With luck someone in the future may very well be trying to get your sound !! Dig ?..Find a reputable pickup (the floating DeArmond on my $500 Gretsch NYer is clear and warm through my $65 Acoustic 10"...What's the prob ? I set the tone on the amp and it's fine...
Another thought: Why is any jazz group (harmfully) loud ? It's modern chamber music, not glam rock.. If you are fighting to be heard, the group is too loud..You need to hear one another plus not blast out the audience ..If you do like it loud maybe you'd be better off in a fusion, funk, or rock group...Again, I mean no negativity toward you guys. And I don't play guitar as well as many of you. It's meant as a friendly gesture, not a rant .. M
Besides, if it's too loud you're too old
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I agree, an octal tube amp is very very essential thing in getting this tone. I have one and I love it, even if I'm not particularly chasing CC tone. But a hollow body with any p90 ish type pickup into octal tube amp- you are in the ballpark, guaranteed.
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Man, y'all like to overthink shit.
Anything with a P90-ish pickup (stock tele will work fine too) crank a small tube amp, and turn down your guitar's volume until only the hardest hit notes break up.
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Thanks, Jonathan. Originally Posted by campusfive
I can easily proceed on items #1 and #3, with #2 and #4 maybe to follow later. This is the beginning of the trip.
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I totally agree, about this in particular and life in general. Particularly as someone playing at home, I should stick with my Tele, ES-135 with P90s and BF Deluxe Reverb, and spend more time playing rather than posting. But what can I say? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Tele with the HCC is the way I went. Originally Posted by Phil59
The pickup was originally in a 24.7" scale ply hollow body and it worked well there. The alnico ll tone is exquisite in both platforms and hook in the Tele bridge in parallel or series and play with amp vol up guitar vol down and its wow.
I believe the larger coil on the humbucker size has an impact on the magnetic flux field capacitor thingumy.
Dont fret over the right this to get the right that, audiences usually don't know the difference in guitar tone, but heck, we do don't we. If you're digging the tone of your instrument set up then your playing improves and therefore the audience dig your playing. Thats when you get plaudits on your guitar tone.
Chasing the tone Dragon is fraught with expense and consumes your precious time. But damn it is fun!
Good luck matey.
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I agree with Mr. B -- You can go along way with P-90, a small tube amp turned up to get the power amp starting to compress on large signals, along with a low setting on the guitar's volume to limit the amount of drive into the input stage, so that only hard hits will overdrive the amp's front end. Although this isn't the complete recipe, it's a large part of it.
That said, there's another problem in that we tend to hear with our eyes. An example of this is that so many people tend to automatically equate CC-look pickups that are designed to drop into a humbucker slot with a real CC-build type pickup. IMO the construction methods used in the two designs differ so much that it's not even possible for the humbucker slot or dog-ear offerings to sound authentic. Of course that won't stop the independent winders from selling pickups that will easily drop into a humbucker slot, and look so good that we'll hear them with our eyes. A large number of them are selling pickups that look like CC pickups on the outside, but don't come anywhere close to emulating a CC pickup in terms of their build design or tone. The authentic CC pickup has large bar magnets that extend under the pickup and mount via screws to the guitar's soundboard. That magnet geometry plays a significant role in the pickup's tone. The authentic design is large enough that only one pickup will physically fit onto a guitar because the magnets take up so much room.
The good news is that there is a CC reproduction pickup being made in the UK that is actually built to the original CC specs. The bad news is that even that company is offering pure CC-look pickups right along side their authentic CC reproduction, going so far as to put three dog-ear mounted pickups on an archtop. (!)
Interestingly, they make a lot of hay on their web site about reverse engineering their authentic CC pickup design from original specimens. That they are willing to show in their picture gallery an archtop with three dog-ears, while claiming that they design authentic CC pickups gives me pause. Those conditions are mutually exclusive. Anyone familiar with the real CC design will appreciate that there's just no way to fit three of them on an archtop because of the magnet shape. For them to mount three of them using a dog-ear mount, the pickup design has to be so heavily modified that it doesn't qualify as a CC design. Of course, it looks good, so they sell it.
IMO one CC pickup in the neck position is all that's required if your after the CC tone, and anyone offering a CC-type product that doesn't have the long magnets that require the 3 screws into the soundboard isn't selling a real CC-type pickup. And if they're putting two or three of them in a guitar, then you're definitely not looking at a real CC-type pickup.
Caveat emptor.
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Your Tele looks great. And let's face it, aesthetics are important. I recently declined two good-value used guitars primarily because I didn't like the way they looked. Thanks for the assumption about my audience. At this stage, playing jazz instead of classic rock, I am at home. My wife likes it that the volume is lower when I play! Originally Posted by jazzbow
Tele with the HCC is the way I went.
The pickup was originally in a 24.7" scale ply hollow body and it worked well there. The alnico ll tone is exquisite in both platforms and hook in the Tele bridge in parallel or series and play with amp vol up guitar vol down and its wow.
I believe the larger coil on the humbucker size has an impact on the magnetic flux field capacitor thingumy.
Dont fret over the right this to get the right that, audiences usually don't know the difference in guitar tone, but heck, we do don't we. If you're digging the tone of your instrument set up then your playing improves and therefore the audience dig your playing. Thats when you get plaudits on your guitar tone.
Chasing the tone Dragon is fraught with expense and consumes your precious time. But damn it is fun!
Good luck matey.
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If you have a trumpet or sax player in the band, they set the lower volume limit for ensemble playing. They can't get "quiet" below a certain point and still play the note. Trumpets can use a mute, but saxes don't. I am always surprised by just how dang loud those instruments are. In my old band we never used a PA except for outdoor gigs. Just balance against the horns. Loud enough to cause feedback problems with my archtop. I'd have played 25% quieter if it was up to me. Originally Posted by MarkInLA
Why is any jazz group (harmfully) loud ? It's modern chamber music, not glam rock..
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My ears disagree, man: Originally Posted by BeBob
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Saxophones can play softly if the player knows how. Not all do. Same with any horn. A mute is mostly for tonal variety, not volume change.
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