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Agreed. I think for some, it's more of a statement that the music is going in a direction they do not approve of and it's a subtle way of disapproving of that.
Regarding tube amps vs modelers, I thought the axefx I was already very close. When I got the axefx II, I had a Gries 35, a blackcat, a mambo and an AI Corus and a vintage fender amp. The axefx ii blew the tube amps away overall and could do anything the solid state amps could do and more. There are a few subtle shades that the tube amps have have over the modelers but the fact that the modelers:
- sound the same in every room
- have no ice-pick-in-the-ears when you are sitting next to them
- are scaleable from small 10lb rigs to 40lb 1000w rigs with no difference in sound quality
- have boutique quality reverb, delay and other effects built in
- never have issues with microphonic tubes and time consuming diagnosis of them
- sound way better than the boutique jazz amps
- handle everything from bass to nylon string to steel string to jazz to rock to fusion to country
- are now widely used in studios and live gigs all over nashville
- can send an identical back-line sound to FOH
- can emulate just about any classic or modern tube or solid state amp
- can emulate just about any classic or modern speaker
- ***have created a new standard for guitar tones
And it's the last point that is the key. It's no longer about how close it can get to a tube amp. It's like film vs. digital sensors. There will always be some guy who claims that there is a look to film that he misses with digital but it's becoming so ubiquitous that the subtle differences are pretty much irrelevant anymore. I see this rapidly happening with guitar amps as amp sales decline, young players come onto the scene who don't remember or idolize people like clapton and as tube production declines to the point of being like film. It's inevitable.
For me, it allows a creativity unsurpassed by using analog gear. Even though I typically only use 5 different presets with my fractal AX8, it would literally take $15k worth of boutique tube amp gear as well as tons of maintenance, pedals, cabs, etc., to even come close to what I have setup in those 5 presets.
I treat the modeling amp as an extension of my guitar in terms of it's tonal shaping ability. It's nice to be able to switch between a traditional archtop tone, a slightly gritty, early-benson tone, an albert lee twangy tele tone, an overdriven allan holdsworth/tim miller tone, an '80 larry carlton tweed deluxe on the verge of overdrive tone, and uniquely new tones that I wouldn't have ever imagined without having this technology!
Originally Posted by rickjazzmister
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05-09-2018 02:24 PM
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A few weeks ago I saw Gene Bertoncini with his Buscarino classical plugged into a borrowed Cube 60; sounded great. Last night it was Jonathan Kreisberg with his ES-175 into a borrowed Deluxe Reverb and a Polytone MBIII with his pedals in between; sounded great. I've never heard Jack in person but have seen some of his videos; sounds great.
My interest as a member of the audience is the music; my curiosity about the signal chain is desultory. My interest in the signal chain as a musician is whether it sounds like what I want to sound like. It's interesting to think about using modeling not to replicate a specific amp but instead creating a virtual amp that facilitates the desired sound. To me that make far more sense than trying to replicate a specific 1957 tweed Deluxe with 6L6s stuck into it.
In the end I don't see any more reason to rip on modeling than I do to rip on point-to-point tube amps. What counts is the sound at the end of the chain and whether it suits the musician.
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Seconded. I got rid of my Katana because of S-Gear. Originally Posted by LtKojak
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Isn’t latency a function of the audio interface drivers? I get 8.2 ms round trip with S-Gear running with Presonus Studio 26 interface set at 88/128. It’s not perfect, but definitely tolerable. Originally Posted by xuoham
Yes, for VST plugin users ScuffhamS-Gear is really good, i tried the demo, but finally didn't buy it because of
the lovely Vermilion by Kuassa (Indonesia !), affordable ($39), no latency and very tweakable.
Fulfills all my needs.
Worth a try for Audio Interface / Computer users !
edit: sounds great and you can load your own impulses.
edit: no affiliado.
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yes, depending on your interface and computer specs latency can be a problem with software based solutions. Not so with hardware like kemper, fractal, etc. Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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Yes, it’s a conundrum for sure. I followed your recent TGP thread on the Ampli Firebox. For $300 it’s probably worth a go. A truly low-latency interface like an RME Babyface costs almost 2x that used. Add in the cost of the software, the added impulse responses I’ve purchased, etc. and I should have just bought an AX8 outright! Originally Posted by jzucker
I’m not sure I want to dump my tube amps altogether, which I would likely have to do in order to consider one of the higher-end hardware modeler. Aside from all the practical pro-modeler points, tube amps are just effin’ cool sometimes.
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plus, i always feared having a forced OS update while I'm on a gig or jamming. Not interested in a general purpose computer plug-in even though arguably they are as good or better than the hardware solutions.
i agree that tube amps are cool. And there's still something about a '64 Blackface Princeton Reverb that can't be beat. When properly tuned, the fender tube reverb circuits are still better than anything you can get in a modeler. The physics of the spring reverb turn out to be surprisingly difficult to model and they require a huge amount of processing power and most folks who use modelers are Djent'ers who don't care. The fractal spring reverb is good but not really as good as the real thing. I finally switched over to a different type of reverb on the fractal and i'm much happier. Turns out, the spring reverb is an acquired taste but not absolutely necessary for great tone.
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
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Jack, since May 5th, 2011 the day I bought S-Gear, I've made over 1,300 performances with a laptop and S-Gear in standalone mode, going through Win XP, W7, W8.1 and W10, counting rehearsals, gigs, studio dates and spontaneous jams. As the first thing you do is to disable the Wi-Fi, no unexpected systematic shenanigans are bound to happen. So your fear is basically unfounded. Originally Posted by jzucker
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Yes of course, most latency problems come from the audio inerface, but some plugins do add latency. Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Like mastering limiters for example, since they need some look ahead.
But, i shouldn't have metioned latency as most of vst preamps have none.
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I am glad it has been successful for you. If you are comparing purpose built-hardware, Rack Eleven, Kemper, Fractal, Helix, Bias Head and the like to a PC rig setup (computer, audio interface, midi controller, software) the hardware solution should be more stable as there less moving parts, the equipment is built for the road, the firmware and supporting operating system is purpose built and tuned for one specific job and there is less variants in configurations. Originally Posted by LtKojak
I know there are folks that go out there with IPADs and Amplitube and I am sure many are successful with their configuration but I am sure there are plenty of people that want the security of a purpose-built solution.
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There are so many low latency interface solutions out there. For live performance where you may be running a standalone amp sim, resources on a modern laptop should be more than ample.
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agreed, and plus - even if you disable updates when using it live, there is always the issue where some OS update renders the audio drivers obsolete. And unfortunately, the nature of audio software/hardware development these days is that driver updates are done for about the first year of a product's development and after that you're out of luck. Originally Posted by rickjazzmister
I have a fairly focusrite 18i8 which was over $400 when I first bought it several years ago. They haven't updated the drivers in years though and there are a couple nasty bugs that have never been fixed with it.
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Originally Posted by rickjazzmister
Not to mention the problems that could occur when using controllers. Originally Posted by jzucker
Two years ago i was naively running a laptop rig with Ableton Live, and it was actually fine: latency, stability, no internet, audio only laptop.
The problem were the two Line 6 FBV Express MKII USB controllers that i was running.
First of all it always took ages for the Line 6 editing soft to detect the devices.
And then one day, the first time i used them live, in the middle of a solo gig with live looping parts, Blue Screen Of Death, no sound, nothing, nada, ...
That was a very shameful and painful moment ... lol. Small club gig, but still ...
After inquiryit turned out that it was because of those two controllers. It never happened again when i changed back to my old Behringer FCB, but anyway, i knew i was done for now with a computer based rig.
Too shaky for me ...
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Great thread. Lots of insider experience. Keep it comin' guys.
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PSA: Freeamp - a recommendation
I use a free VST plugin called "Freeamp" from a guy called Helian under his Label "Fretted Synth Audio". It's no longer under development but works flawlessly. There are various versions that all look similar but sound differently. I normally use the latest version that is 3.6
You can download it free at places like kvraudio.com or bedroomproducersblog.com
It sounds decently especially for clean sounds. Has on board FX, speaker sim, mic placement and so on - mostly everything, only thing missing is an on-board tuner.
For practicing with the computer (backing tracks / Aebersold / BiaB) I use the plugin together with a VST host runtime called "SAVIhost" from an Austrian guy called Hermann Seib VSTHost That way I don't need to have Reaper running all the time.
Works like a charm, loads fast, needs few resources ... in other words ... rather handy.
Last edited by DonEsteban; 05-11-2018 at 05:29 AM. Reason: typo
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Yes, KVRAudio is a great place to start for computer audio.
Not an amp emu per se, but windows guys definitely won't regret taking a look at
Variety Of Sound's plugins, old La2A limiting amp, Fairchild compressor emlulation,
expensive mixer channel strip, super real souding tube EQ, etc ... and all free.
And they look gorgeous on top of it.
The developer, Bootsie, probably doesn't have to work for a living and just gives away some plugins
that would cost much otherwise.
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Well, if you're not tech-savvy enough, you shouldn't be gigging with a rig with no redundancy safety-net built-in to start with, that's a given. In your case, a hardware-based modeler is the logical way to go. In my case, the last BSOD I've experienced was with a Win 95 based, not DAW-optimized, 80286 machine. Originally Posted by xuoham
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i'm a software engineer and I still wouldn't gig with an apple or windows notebook computer as my main preamp. Notebooks are too unreliable. Unreliable power supplies are another problem. I've had to send my dell notebook back 3x because the power connector breaks off from the mother board. And i'm pretty tech savvy but when a windows update causes your audio driver not to work and the audio company hasn't updated their drivers in 3 years it's not a good situation. That's why I use a dedicated modeling device. Originally Posted by LtKojak
Well, if you're not tech-savvy enough, you shouldn't be gigging with a rig with no redundancy safety net built-in to start with, that's a given. In your case, a hardware-based modeler is the logical way to go. In my case, the last BSOD I've experienced was with a Win 95 based, not DAW-savvy machine.
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Well yes, lol, i learned the lesson for sure ! Originally Posted by LtKojak
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I agree with rickjazzmister’s op. The puzzling thing with the modeling for me has been the philosophical question: if modeling is a new thing, why does it copy old amps? Designing new amps for new sounds is more attracting.
There was a time that I thought that modeling would mean less hassle and tweaking than tube amps. For last winter I have tweaked my own built tweed deluxe w/ 6L6’s and I have changed many capacitors, speakers and tubes during these months. Not just plug’n’play solution at all!
But reading experiences of the modeling crowd in this thread shows that tweaking goes on on the laptop. Tweaking never ends, no matter what gear You use!
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Herb, you're definitely not the intended amp modeling demographic. 80% play the hardest and darkest of metal with'em. The remaining crowd wants to recreate the old recorded tones of the usual Clapton, Bloomfield, Kosoff, etc. NO ONE cares from "new sounds". That's the stale mind of the average Joe "I too play guitar". Originally Posted by Herbie
Many Jazz players of the younger generation already gig with some kind of amp modeler, software or hardware, with pretty good results, if you ask me.
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It's not easy to "invent" totally new sounds. Originally Posted by Herbie
Compare it with the development of synthesizers. First they wanted to recreate natural instruments but failed because the technical limitations of the time. So some pioneers took the opportunity and started to create "new" sounds, but mainstream returned soon (ASAP) to recreating natural sounds and started to replace musicians with samples. Then again emerged something "new" with remixing/sampling etc. movement.
Today I guess 9o% or more of all synthesizer use is done to fake natural instruments, including the legendary and then "new sounds" of the early synth days - "Lucky Man" or "Private Dancer" (Turner) etc...
But there also is a strong experimental movement with modular synths be it soft- or hardware.
Like with all technology it depends very much on the technical advancements and needs time. Compare a first generation POD (Line6) wth a latest generation AxeFX - worlds apart!
Let's wait and see how our guitars sound in 10 years. :-)
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Because old amps sound good. Modelling replaces amps not by offering something new but by offering the same thing in a much better package.
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it's totally false that modeling amps *ONLY* copy old amps. First of all, there is a basic misunderstanding here of what a modeling amp is.
There are two different types of modeling amps:
- Sampling based (i.e. atomic, kemper). These work by sampling existing amps. Not sure how you could sample a new amp if it doesn't already exist.
- Circuit emulation amps - (i.e. fractal) - These work by emulating circuitry. Because of this, *ANYTHING* that can be represented with analog circuitry from synthesizers to SS amps to wah wahs to vintage fender to brand new mesas can be emulated. Additionally, fractal *DOES* have many original (new) amps that have *NEVER* been available in any form other than in their modeler.
- Additionally, with the fractal you can combine facets from many different amps and piece them together. For example, you can create a black face twin but give it a tube rectifier and then run it with EL84 tubes but running at 500v and into a single 15w vox alnico speaker. You can run the reverb before the amp, after the amp or after the cabinet. Is that an older amp or a newer amp?
Originally Posted by Herbie
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TBH, that's the main thing keeping me away from something like the OP, or Fractal. That level of tweakability tends to be a rabbit hole for me, so I stick with simpler, more limited stuff. Originally Posted by Herbie
John
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