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Please help me choose the right speaker.
The story so far… A few years ago, I picked up a strangebeast on “the Bay”. It was a clone of of a late 90s short-run series of Fenderscalled the “Two-Tone”. Essentially, they were just a Blues Junior transplantedinto a larger cab with 1X12 & 1X10 configuration.
This particular one was a cabinet made by the excellent AFCustom cabinets (here in the UK) with astandard BJ chassis installed. The speakers were (and still are): EminenceCannabis Rex 12” and Celestian G10.
After a while, it became clear that the BJ chassis simplywasn’t cutting it so I took it to a local amp builder and he made me a new ampto just drop in (in place of the BJ). The specs are as follows 2 x 6L6, 3 X 12AX7,tube rectified, tube reverb, non-master volume etc. It is essentially a 50w (loose)“clone” of a 50s Fender.
It went back over the weekend for a new reverb tank and ageneral service but it got me thinking about speakers as I have long felt that currentconfiguration does not suit the amp. Whilst it is in the work shop, I figured Iwould get them changed to something more suitable.
Currently, the sound is a little mid-heavy and although theamp is voiced to be quite low-gain, it often distorts too early for my liking.
What I would like is a cleaner and perhaps softer sound (maybeeven a more mid-scooped sound) but definitely more aimed towards jazz.
I was thinking of maybe a single 15” instead of what is there now or maybe a more “efficient” 12. I know the 10 is probably causing themid-hump I can hear so I think that will definitely need to go but what elsewould you recommend?
I predominantly play with a female singer and an upright bass (both amplified).
Thanks in advance.Last edited by steviebee74; 06-04-2018 at 09:05 AM.
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06-04-2018 08:21 AM
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Your best option is of course to try as much speakers as possible, which is offently not as easy as it sounds without buying them first.
I would think more about 'flatter' response speakers for 'jazz' (Grant Green or John Scofield?)
Celestion G12-65 or the cheaper and for some equal or better WGS ET65 or ET90.
Celestion Classic Lead 80 maybe?
I have used Emi Swamp Thangs in a 2x12 with a D style amp for Fusion (lots of clean tone too) and it was great. Massive lows and crisp highs, slightly scooped mids and VERY efficient speakers. And stays clean very long. Based on Fanes speakers. Metal players seem to like them too for obvious reasons.
EV 12L? But you'll need a gym membership somewhere with big irons to pump
That said who knows, you might like Celestions G12H30 (aniv) (my favorites currently, very efficient too) but you'll need two for your 50W.
Or a greenback or creamback, or a V30
Cheers.
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It is unlikely that a speaker change will fix your distortion problem. The C-Rex is one of the most efficient guitar speakers made. Talk to your amp builder about tube changes and tweaks that may help.
You could look for less mid-heavy speakers (but 15" are famous for being mid-rich). I would suggest some of the Weber Vintage series (copies of old Jensens). But, again, your best bet is amp changes. Perhaps a Fender Blackface tone stack can be added. This will really scoop the mids.
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The distortion could well be down to the tubes you're using
What 6L6 tubes do you have in the preamp stage?
Depending on the make, break-up will kick in at varying points on the volume dial. Excellent articles here describing different makes of 6L6 :
https://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bi...treport_44.pdf
Shopping
I had the reverse problem, and wanted mild breakup to start on my Princeton Recording at 5 on the dial as opposed to 7. Changing the 6V6s to Genelex Gold Lion tubes produced the change I wanted. In your case installing Philips 7581A 6L6s may be a solution for the cleaner sound you are seeking.
Hope this helps
Ray
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I'm with Maggles. Those are two efficient speakers now, not quick to distort. So that part of what you're reacting to is mysterious. Unless you're running it quite loud, and wish for more headroom than you have now.
Cab build and dimensions can affect how things sound. Could the stock cab be too small? I have a pine 12+10 open back cabinet with a WGS G12C and G10C together. Using it with a 35 watt Allen Encore. At least with that amp, the cab sounds just about perfect. It's my guess that it's the happy combination of not-too-small cab size, open back, and just right speakers for the amp. But no way to tell.
MD
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I use a Victoria Regal , running anywhere from 5-30w depending on tubes. It uses a 15” Eminence speaker and I haven’t found something better. I have two other 1x12 amps (by Carr and Victoria) but the Regal has the best tone for me. Btw, 15” does not mean big bass at the expense of treble clarity, as you probably know. It’s a lovely balanced tone with good high end sparkle in my experience.
Originally Posted by steviebee74
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I had a 12" C Rex in my PR, but too woofy for me. I went back to a 10" emi alnico, clean, clear and if you keep the treble down to 4ish smooth and sweet.
I had a VVT Lindy Fralin with an emi 15" and that was a very sweet sounding amp, that also did tele snarl when needed, and not over bassy. Sold as a bit heavy for an old man.
Going completely against the VVT comment, I tried a very clean reissue 2 x 10" Vibroverb and had to have it though it weighed about the same as the VVT! Stock speakers don't sound so good above 4 so installed emi alnico 10s, and all is great. The best sweetest amp sound for me, and will still growl with a tele if you push it. Brownface preamp circuit gives me best control over the tone and the bias vibrato is terrific. I LOVE this amp, and I've had my share of Twins, deluxes, bassman, etc. I always thought 12s were the way to go, but for me alnico 10s meet all my needs.
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From the people who have had 15" speakers, especially the emi´s, which speakers have/are you suggesting? I am intrigued. I have had very good results with a 12" emi designed for bass and have been thinking of a cab with a 15" er. Any suggestions?
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I think the emi 15" in my VVT was a legend model. VVT might be able to clarify. I thought it sounded great, not boomy, and had all the top to do a gnarly tele justice. I also used it with a Gretsch CG for Atkins stuff and it did that well too.
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When I'm playing my Super-400 CES (early 60's, strung with 013 Thomastiks) at the gig with drums and bass/horns etc. I NEED a powerful amp because with my rather heavy attack and the strong signal coming from that large guitar a small amp distorts much too soon. My Evans RE200 (200 watts solid state combo) works really fine with that guitar and the 10" Eminence speaker is certainly capable of delivering a clear and punchy, albeit balanced sound, at stage volume levels. So don't underestimate a 10" speaker ! A larger speaker will move air (depending on cab size/construction) but not really that much more - doubling the cone surface won't double the perceived volume but the sound will be spread out more so you'll be heard on stage ;-)
Physics can't be denied : either we schlepp large and heavy amps or we compromise with less power and light weight cabs ... when the venue has a decent PA /monitor system I get by with my DV Mark Little Jazz combo, a puny lil 20 Watter ! No PA, no monitors and I take my RE200, plain and simple.
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The one in my Victoria Regal is an Eminence Legend 15” Originally Posted by bananafist
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Can anyone recommend the best/most affordable 15" cabs or combos? Thanks
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I've had several - more like many at this point - 15" combo amps and/or cabs. In terms of affordable, it's hard to beat the Peavey Delta Blues. I don't own one, but have tried a couple. Some favorites for me:
- Li'l Dawg Dlux. They're more commonly 1x12, but mine was rehoused in a 1x15 tweed cab by Peter Mather. Essentially a tricked out tweed deluxe. Biggest sounding 14 watts ever. My favorite tweed so far.
- Victoria 35115. Mark Baier's take on the the old tweed pro formula.
- Victoria Victorilux.
- Victoria Trem de la Trem. A 1x15 take on the old tweed tremolux formula.
- Ampeg Gemini II. Mine was not stock. 6L6s, larger OT, tube rectifier. Heavy, unwieldy, but oh what a sound.
I'd like to try the 1x15 Polytone MB III or IV. Maybe someday.
MD
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all your input and advice. In then end, we decided to remove the Celestion G10 and make a new baffle for the Eminence CR so the combo is now a 1X12.
I think the 12"/10" were "clashing" somehow & it seems to sound fuller and cleaner. It's also less "boomy" than before!
The Eminence CR is only rated at 50w but seems to be doing fine. As we've now done the work, I could move change to a higher rated speaker at any point without too much aggro.
It's also a fair bit lighter and better balanced
I picked it up last night and it's getting it's first rehearsal this evening and will do two gigs over the weekend.
I will let you know how it goes!
Cheers form the UK!
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I was thinking about that option as I've followed this thread. Sometimes a single speaker sounds great in a larger cabinet. I've engaged in a lot of speaker threads in the past and have found that my own interpretations of speakers can be polar opposite of other's. I find it easiest to just buy and sell used speakers until you get to what you like. It's not hard to get what you paid, you might invest a little in shipping, and for me it is a lot of fun.
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I have a Polytone MB III and I just sold a MB I both which have the original speaker. To my ears and my playing style the MB III with the 15" speaker sounds more open and fuller with more sparkle. The MB I with the 12" was tighter sounding, darker, more compressed and "boxy" compared to the 15". For my style with an Eastman AR371 the 15" MB III was the winner. Originally Posted by mad dog
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Recently talked to someone with 15" boutique combo, performing in duo with a bassist/singer. He was looking for an extension cab to "fill the stage". Alas, the combo did not have a jack for the extension unit. The point is: the larger the speaker, the narrower the beam, i.e. the more directional it is. I would keep the 10" and 12" speakers and, as others have suggested, look at the amp for the breakup issue. The Jensen Tornados are efficient, loud, good-sounding and mercifully lightweight.
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I've heard that "beamier" comment before about 15" speaker amps. My current fave tweed is a 1x15. Has a weber beam blocker installed. It seems no different in terms of directionality than the Victoria Trem de la Trem I had earlier. 1x15, similar wattage. Maybe I am missing something ...
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Do you think the Polytone foam speaker grills like on my diamond tolex MB III have a "beam" blocking effect on the sound? I have not noticed that "beam" effect.
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Shapes and materials matter. A speaker on in front of or behind the baffle sounds different, especially if the latter's hole has been rounded. Grills do have a role, too. Subject to further study.
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Also some speakers like JBL and Altec speakers don't have a straight cone, but a flaired cone like a trombone so they have better dispersion. I am a big fan of 15" speakers including Altecs, JBL, Jensen, CTS and EVM. Most all have there place. They move a lot of air with great bottom and top end.
Thanks John
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The first thing I'd try is not running so many 12AX7 preamp tubes. There's a lot of gain there and your early distortion is probably coming from that (or the rectifier if that's a tube). I'm assuming here that V1 and V2 are for signal gain and v3 is the phase inverter. Try replacing V1 with a lower gain tube- a 12AU7 maybe. Your tech ought to have one laying around to try. And check for the rectifier tube having too much voltage sag, which can hurt headroom. The Fender Twin Reverb went to a solid-state rectifier in part to stay cleaner by reducing sag. I assume bias has been checked.
Gain and distortion are typically valued since most amps are used for blues or rock. Most amp techs are used to thinking in those terms, so you may need to reorient your guy to warm clean jazz tones.
If you can fix the tone problem with a tube or two, way cheaper than new speakers.
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What is the circuit of the amp based on? (5e3? 5f6a? 6g3? AB763?) I agree that with three 12ax7s in the preamp you get a lot of gain, unless one ore more of them are used for the reverb or tremolo or a 2nd channel.
The AB763 preamp is Fender’s cleanest preamp (especially the non-reverb variant) and should offer you plenty of clean headroom with a 6L6 poweramp.
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