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Thanks all for the responses.
Let me explain better my question - I have a vintage Guild X500 on which I had a current production Classic 57 (meh) and now I have a Bare Knuckle Stormy Monday (love it). I also have a Godin Kinpin on which I put a PAF in a P90 format which sounds like most mini humbuckers I tried, good but not as good as a PAF.
I am soon getting two custom archtops which will have a full size PAF mounted as a floater (no drills on the top). They will also have a solderless system so switching pickups will be fast and easy. I had the chance to buy a cheap Di Marzio 36th and a cheap a SD Alnico Pro II so that's what I am gonna use and I am positive I will like both.
But I am curious with Humbuckers thaat sound different than PAFs and both The Creamery Hollow Body and the KA Built In got me attention - the KA specially because it sounds so good on Baker guitars and not so PAF like.
So my question is not so much about which one is better but more how different is the built in KA from a PAF and why is it different?
Again, thanks!
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03-21-2015 11:22 AM
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Old Gibson PAF cost about $ 400-500 I think. KA -about $160.... I havn't chance to try old Gibson PAF.
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I am saying PAF as general term - not exactly Gibson PAF but you know SD, Di Marzio, Lolar, Bare Knuckle all the usual suspects.
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Hi Rick,
Originally Posted by r_cc_c
I used 250 pot.
Best
Kris
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Funny, I used that pickup and could never get it to sound that good. Mine had a harsh upper mid spike and a very "hard" sound- basically it sounded like Django Reinhardt and I wanted to sound like Jim Hall. But that may have been the interaction between that pickup and that particular guitar (and my technique, etc.; it sounded pretty much the same through all my amps. There was no taming it with EQ, swapping in various values for pots and caps, etc.). I've gone to a modified Classic 57 with a neck mount with very good results. Originally Posted by kris
To Jorge, built-in pickups almost always sound darker and fatter than the equivalent pickup as a floater. If you have a particular sound in mind, I'd suggest calling Kent. He is very customer friendly and will happily wind you a custom pickup at a very reasonable price and/or can advise you whether one of the pre-made KA pickups (like the one at DjangoBooks.com) will get you the sound you want. He can also give you specific advice on tone/volume pots and caps.
The Dimarzio 36th Anniversary pickup is well regarded by Jim Soloway and others; you can hear how it sounds in many of Jim's recordings (Jim usually goes for a bright, Lenny Breau type sound). You can probably find examples of both on YouTube pretty easily.
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When I talked with Kent Armstrong about my PAF-0 12 pole floater (on my guitar it was harsh and brittle, very unlike the tone in Kris's video) he recommended using a 500K volume, 250K tone and a .033 cap; I ended up trying several and ultimately going with a .047. But that pickup just didn't work with that guitar and was replaced with a Classic 57 I modified to be a neck mounted floater. Originally Posted by r_cc_c
The old Gibson wiring used 300K pots with humbuckers which is part of why the tone was darker (they probably just put humbuckers into the existing P-90 circuits). As distortion became de rigeur, 500K pots for humbuckers became the norm to reduce the muddiness. Now it is mostly 250K for single coils and 500k for humbuckers without question, but 250k pots can work fine with 'buckers too. Someday I'm going to wire up 300k pots to the Classic 57 and see what I get.
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Thanks Cunamara.
This is a built in KA trough a Polytone (I believe). Sounds quite different from a PAF - but very good. I was expecting someone here could confirm my idea that it sounds quite different from a PAF
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Hi Jorge. My guess is it will sound different from a standard PAF, because instead of a row of screws and a ( hidden) set of 6 rods under the cover, we can see that it has 12 hollow screws. This will affect the response - I would have though it made it less 'fat', because the pole pieces will contain less iron, but that's only a guess. The resistance at 8K is slightly on the high side, but not by much.
Kent makes some great pickups; I still have a single-pole floater from when I was going though my acoustic-electric phase, and that sounded very like the DeArmond 1100. Maybe he is trying to make a clear alternative to the standard PAF type picks, maybe more 'acoustic ' sounding. That would make commercial sense...
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Wow Chris as always, very heplful! Never had thought the number of exposed pole pieces would affect sound.. So maybe my PAF in a P90 sounds so acoustic because of that? Anyway, that's good news, I do want the KA to be more acoustic and less fat than a PAF. Originally Posted by Franz 1997
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Yes, I agree with Kris, it's almost impossible to tell how a pickup will really sound until you try it on the guitar.
That's why I have a whole box full of old pickups...
But there are some general rules most of us know about. More resistance= generally, darker & fatter above 7k or so; more inductance= more lows, muddy treble. More iron in the polepieces= generally louder, fatter. Different magnets also affect the sound.
And there are exceptions; the original CC pickups have low resistance, about 3k. But they sound very fat, partly because there is so much iron inside the coil, a whole bar of iron. The Guild HB sounds quite different from a PAF, less middle, yet the specs are very similar. Many people just think about the resistance, but that's only one factor of several.
Someone said that KA is one of the best pickup makers, and I agree. If you have a particular sound in mind, he can do it - he's got the required many years of experience. His dad Dan was pretty good, too....
If you're considering the KA, why not email him?
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The two humbuckers that I have had the most success with are:
1) Kent Armstrong 12-Pole Piece Floating Pickup
2) Jason Lollar Imperial Low-Wind
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The biggest issue *I* see on using a floater is the lack of the for me one of the most important feature: height adjustment.
All p'ups have a "sweet spot", meant as the distance from the strings the coils and the polepieces work in sinergy with the body resonance giving the desired "tone footprint", which can be further tweaked with the tone controls.
P'up rings providing height adjustment exist for a reason, and the use of floaters reflects an era where knowledge about this kind of things was non-existent. People just grabbed whatever they had at hand and played their instruments using their playing ability to compensate for tone, meaning they played what they thought sounded best.
Amazing concept, huh?
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Hi!
Long time lurker first time poster here! This forum is really a great source for info!
Anyway, I was thinking about switching the stock pickup on my peerless manhattan for a Kent Armstrong handmade PAF Floater, and I simply wonder if it's going to fit. I realise that the cut out on the pickguard will have to be modified, but is the pickguard on a correct hight from the strings? How do I know if the string spacing on the guitar will fit the magnets etc.
If you think that this is a beginner's question, then rest assured, I am a beginner when it comes to archtops
!
Here's the link to specifications of peerless manhattan.
Peerless Manhattan | Guitars 'n Jazz
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The PAF floater that I've found in Europe is the pickguard mounted version, hence the question if the pickguard is on the correct height from the strings.
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The string spacing will be fine. The question is whether there is enough vertical space between the top and the strings to fit the pickup in there. The PAF-0 from Kent Armstrong is pretty thin, not much different than the mini humbucker than comes on that guitar, so my guess is yes. Doc Dosco here can probably tell you for certain. You may need to shim between the tab on the pickup and the underside of the pickguard to get the pickup the right distance from the strings. I had to shim it 1/8" on my guitar to get the pickup away from the strings enough.
Listen carefully to as many sound samples as you can to make sure the KA pickup is what you want. Mine was very bright and cutting which was not the sound I was looking for (I really am looking form somethin gmore along the lines of Jim Hall with his ES-175 and GA-50 amp, so let's face it a carvetop with a floater might not have been my best purchase). Also, per Kent's advice, I used a 500k audio taper volume, 250 k audio taper tone and a .05 capacitor. Without the tone control the pickup was entirely too bright and harsh.
BTW I modified a Gibson Classic 57 to be a floater and the tone is really nice, more in the Peter Bernstein range than Jim Hall but I really like it.
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Thanks for the quick and informative reply!
What does it mean to shim (I'm from Sweden)?
In the clips I've found it has a nice dark sound, like this one:
But maybe I'm wrong. What would you recommend? Looking for a nice dark, electric sound. I got an archtop with a floater because I mainly play rhythm guitar in swing settings unplugged w mike and didn't want to compromise with acoustics. But I would like a darker electric sound for playing at home...
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A shim is a term to describe a thin piece of material to increase distance between two points. A larger piece of material would be called a wedge. Originally Posted by mikee
Bolt on necks on F****r type guitars sometimes need a shim in the neck pocket to increase or decrease the neck angle
A shim to slightly increase neck angle
A shim to greatly increase neck angle
A wedge to force two struts apart...
...to help push out the tail block for gluingLast edited by jazzbow; 10-28-2015 at 07:22 PM.
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Thanks for the educative photos!
Man, this forum is great!
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Originally Posted by mikee
Hi!
Long time lurker first time poster here! This forum is really a great source for info!
Anyway, I was thinking about switching the stock pickup on my peerless manhattan for a Kent Armstrong handmade PAF Floater, and I simply wonder if it's going to fit. I realise that the cut out on the pickguard will have to be modified, but is the pickguard on a correct hight from the strings? How do I know if the string spacing on the guitar will fit the magnets etc.
If you think that this is a beginner's question, then rest assured, I am a beginner when it comes to archtops!
Here's the link to specifications of peerless manhattan.
Peerless Manhattan | Guitars 'n Jazz
You might consider removing and sending the Manhattan PU directly to Kent. He will rewire the guts and send the PU back to you. It's cheaper and you don't have to worry about PU fitting.
Doc Dosco
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That's a good suggestion Doc, but since I live in Sweden, I think it might acutally be cheaper to buy a PAF in Europe. Do you think it will fit? Or does a lot of work need to be done?
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Good question. The KA mini floaters I have seen are somewhat different in shape from the standard Manhattan PU. However, when I asked, Peerless said that they could be retrofitted on a Peerless archtop, but that screw holes to mount it were in a different place. Peerless uses KA PUs now on their higher end guitars. Originally Posted by mikee
However, the PAF that you are talking about seems to be a bigger size than a regular floater?
In that case, you might want to talk to Kent about it. He has a workshop at his home in Vermont. He does like to talk PUs, so a phone call to him directly (even from Sweden) might be helpful. He should have some recommnedations on mounting one of his PAF PUs on a Peerless 17" as the Peerless design is basically like a D'Aquisto New Yorker in dimensions. Or, he might suggest another option.
He charges $70 to custom hand wire and rebuild a PU. People send him their PU housing and he replaces the guts. Were you to go this route, the PU would fit perfectly on your guitar as it came from that guitar in the first place. Sending a PU to and from the US by regular mail might not cost all that much. You would have to ask him if he sends his reworked PUs to Europe
Kent's number is 802 843-1065. His son Arron is closer to you. He makes PUs in London. It's a family thing.
Kent probably doesn't sell his complete hand wound PUs himself. I would think that because there is a distribution network and then retail stores involved, that the agreements made might not allow him to sell his PUs directly to end users. However, he certainly does offer custom rewinds (probably becuase it doesn't interfere with the dealers that sell his products.) And it is much cheaper - that is, if you have him rewind your current PU with heavier wire and larger magnets with his custom hand wired process. If you get a KA PU in a different shape, then you'd have to buy it retail. But Kent should know what to suggest.
Anyway, if you call Kent, tell him Doc sent you.... : )
Doc DoscoLast edited by docdosco; 10-29-2015 at 09:23 PM.
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I second the KA rebuild idea. He has done two floaters for me and they worked great. One of the things you need to remember is that the PU assembly is a custom made part for a custom made guitar so even the assemblies made for a specific model will not always be the same.
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Thanks for the reply, Doc! I'm going to think about the rewinding
. The reason why I wanted to go for the adjustable pole pieces is because I'm using Bronze strings, and I would like to be able to balance them out. Now I'm guessing a pickup could be wound with that in mind, but then I can't adjust the poles if I want to go back to flatwounds... Too
I've already found the contact details of Aaron Armstrong, and I'm thinking about asking him to do the rewinding. Anyone had any experience of his work?
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Thanks for the reply! I'm more and more leaning towards having the pickup rewound Originally Posted by tonedeaf
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Good idea. Originally Posted by docdosco
Had some contact with Aaron Armstrong regarding my Peerless Monarch floater. Easiest way for both parties, send the floater to him and he will rewire it. No problems with screw positioning. Think the price was about 70 Euro. Never got around to it though. The original PU grew on me. Good luck and hej då!
Ted
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