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You guys who're gigging vintage jazz arch tops (with vintage-size small frets) on a regular basis, where do you come down on refretting ? Alter your guitar from original spec for a more user friendly fret size ? Or learn to like them ?
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07-23-2018 08:56 PM
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Use the fret size you like it is your guitar to play. Sometimes fret size
is dependant on the particular situation to a small extent. On a complete refret i always suggest customers go with pretty high fret size. More room for dressing in future and I happen to like a good size fret. Medium higher is a term used but Jesscar gives sizes not names. Jesscar frets i really like.
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Fret away...There's no value attached to vintage frets. Well, I don't as long as the re-fret is well-done, not a botched job. That said, I have seen that odious ebay mangler of vintage guitars attempt to sell worn 1959 Gibson frets for "vintage" restoration or mimickry figuring that there is one born every minute. They are worn that's why they were pulled off. I am sure if they could find used strings from 1959, they would offer them up, too. Now, your 59 Les Paul Standard mimickry project is complete!
I chose Jescar EVO 47x104. Had I known it was available directly from Jescar, I would have chosen EVO 47x095 or 50x090. I got mine from LMII. 0.104" wide frets look like railway ties on the fretboard. 0.047" crown though feels just right. It could be recrowned down to 0.043" before another re-fret. EVO work-hardens so that takes some doing.
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A guitar is a tool to make music. A tool should fit your needs. A refret makes your guitar a better tool.
Ergo: I didn’t hesitate a single moment to refret my 1950 ES-125 and I have never regretted it.
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Frets are kinda like shoes. They cushion every step and they last a good long time if not mistreated, but they do wear down eventually. And who like smelly old worn shoes? Same with frets, perhaps without the smell.
Vintage guitars I own with fresh frets span the decades:
'28 L-5
'33 L-12
'47 Super 400
'63 ES-175
'75 L-5C
'85 ES-175
As to size, I prefer tall and moderately wide, so I attach no value to re-fretting with original spec (tiny frets, flat frets, ugh).
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Both of my archtops are old - 50s Silvertone 1427 and a '62 Guild X-50. Both refretted by me with bigger frets. Totally worth it.
MD
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On the contrary, I would rather have eaten a pair of old shoes vs. dealing with the dried septage caked up against the frets on some fret jobs. Of curse it is very rare, but the amazingly zoological nature of some fret jobs makes an old shoe seem like a rose.
Originally Posted by rpguitar
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Tall and moderately wide- yes.
I think I'm going to refrett a vintage ES-175D I just bought..
Originally Posted by rpguitar
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I debated for far too long about whether or not to refret my GJS. I finally ditched the worn wide/low frets and replaced them with Jescar EVO Gold FW51100. I never looked back afterward. I’ll no longer hesitate to refret a guitar if it needs it.
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That's what I used to refret my '68 "Fretless Wonder" LPC when its frets went down to .0030" and bending strings became simply unbearable. I still remember the "new guitar feeling" when I got it from the luthier... best feeling ever! Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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I'm all for refretting a vintage guitar if it has no "memorabilia" factor, such as having been owned by a famous person. I have been told by Gruhn Guitars of Nashville that re-fretting a guitar that has significant "memorabilia" value will lower that value significantly. I guess if you don't care about the value and just want to play it, then go for it.
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I'm all for keeping a guitar original. But if I can't make it playable because of some memorabilia value attached to old frets then it is a wall-hanging and hence useless to me. I won't pay the upcharge for such a guitar. Oh, Elvis played it.
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People do pay serious money for things to hang on the wall. If I did come into a guitar with real memorabilia value, I'd sell it as soon as I could and buy something I could play. Or just sell it, I have things I can play. But there is always something better, that I don't have...
But if it's not playable, it's of no interest to me unless I can make it playable, economically. But of course I'm not everyone.
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If it’s a great instrument, who says you can’t play it? Originally Posted by sgosnell
People do pay serious money for things to hang on the wall. If I did come into a guitar with real memorabilia value, I'd sell it as soon as I could and buy something I could play. Or just sell it, I have things I can play. But there is always something better, that I don't have... But if it's not playable, it's of no interest to me unless I can make it playable, economically. But of course I'm not everyone.
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Exactly.
I just picked up a '53 ES-175D I have every intention playing.. and playing some more. And to my original post question I'm quite certain I'll refret this guitar with something like med/jumbo just as soon as the guitar tells me to do so. Right now I'm enjoying the instrument as it is, experimenting with string types/ guages. Worth mentioning, the frets on this example show little if any wear. The neck and fretboard are excellent.
Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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I have a ‘52 ES-175 that still has the tiny original frets. The neck is so good on this guitar that I barely notice, even though I usually like jumbos. Originally Posted by electricfactory
I was about to put it up for sale until I decided to try an original ‘50s rosewood instead of the TOM that I had on it (it had a broken non-original bridge on it when I bought it). The wooden bridge too it’s tone to a new level and I decided to keep it.
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If the frets are worn out, it can become difficult to play a guitar. And a guitar with huge memorabilia value may have other playability problems. Memorabilia value does not guarantee a great instrument. I would never buy a guitar just because someone famous played it, it would have to be a great instrument, or at least capable of being restored to a great instrument with minimal expense. But again, I'm not everyone, and I don't have unlimited funds. I tend to buy used guitars played by unknown musicians.
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This whole "vintage" guitar value thing has just gotten completely insane; really people, a guitar so valuable you can't play it? Guitars are NOT investments, if you're afraid to put the frets you want on a guitar, you might as well sell it and buy a Dolce and Gabbana suede umbrella because it'll be just as useful to you as your unplayable guitar. Frets are like strings, they wear out and you replace them, they come in different sizes and you find the ones you like best and use those. I use low wide 6130 .106 x .036; you should use whatever you like on any guitar that you like.
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I've done the vintage thing for a long time and do feel that having a refretted guitar does in fact affect the value--provided that the original frets are in good shape. Of course if a guitar has worn unplayable frets that doesn't make it more valuable than if the frets are replaced--sometimes it's a necessity. I think this is particularly true for guitars like Gibsons where the binding is installed over the frets as a refret typically would just lay over the top of the binding. That said if you are dedicated to keeping a guitar indefinitely then most certainly refret it with what you like. For me personally I have had a 50's Guild for a long time that I don't foresee ever selling--I ended up having it refretted with no regrets. On the other hand I recently had a pretty valuable 50's Gibson that was in great shape with the original tiny frets. I didn't love them but made due. I wasn't 100% with the guitar anyway and when I decided to sell I was glad it remained in all original condition as I know the buyer would have hit me for a price reduction due to a refret.
Last edited by stringmaster; 07-30-2018 at 11:12 AM.
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I've refretted a number of vintage guitars and have no regrets. If you want to play the guitar, it needs to be set up the way you like it.
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Here we have the difference between players and collectors. As a player I think that any guitar should be able to be made playable. However, there are collectors that don't even play, especially those that focus on guitars as an object of memorabilia. To those people, replacing the original frets will lower the value as a strictly collectable item.
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I completely agree, esp. with your comment ' refret it with what you like ', esp. if you're going to keep it. Originally Posted by stringmaster
That being said, I am not at all sure about a skinny fret Gibson. I own a decent blonde L-7 cutaway, that I'd been shopping for about 2 years. In this market, from what I've been told regarding trade values, I'm not sure original skinny frets vs. refrets matters. If it has original skinny frets, which mine does, the reason for giving you a stupidly low money trade allowance is ' the current market'. If it's been refretted, the reasoning is maybe ' due to the frets ', otherwise, it's ' the current market'.
I keep thinking something like ( 'wish I'd have said' ): " Ok, so that means I add a thousand bucks to your trade figure, and these '50's L-7's cutaway, natural, clean, should be available everywhere for $3500. So, ok I'm a buyer - let me take a look at one. "
" Oh I don't have any ".
Me: " That's funny - -- no one else does either ". (( So now where are these market forces ?? ))
Oh well.
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A guitar can certainly be considered as an art object as well as a tool. If changing the frets will reduce the value of a vintage guitar, perhaps a refret might not make much economic sense. But one should do a cost benefit analysis. Figure out the reduction in value plus the cost of the refret. Divide by the number of years you expect to play the instrument. That is your cost per year to play the instrument (this cost may be offset by rising appreciation). If the cost seems well worth it, refret the guitar and do not look back. If not, sell the guitar and get something that is more playable for you. Or hang it on your wall if that gives you pleasure.
From where I stand, a guitar will always be more of a tool than an object of art. If I cannot play it, I do not want to own it. As an investment, I would rather own real estate. The rents from real estate that I have acquired over the years gives me the luxury of being a professional jazz musician in 2018. I doubt any vintage guitar will cash flow very well.
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Originally Posted by 6stringjazz
As that old guy once said: " Collectors buy junk, but sell antiques. "
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I would be happy to own Johnny Smith's D'angelico but if the frets were worn and bad I would get it refreted. I bet Johnny would agree %100. If I cannot play the guitar because of a issue related to what is worth and modifications I don't want any thing to do with the guitar.
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