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Hi Everyone.
I have been asking since a long time this question.
Many people consider that a laminate dead sounding archtop has a better amplified tone. Some other like me, find that a nicely carved solid resonant archtop has a much more dynamic response: but as long as I know L-5 Ces is a much mor darker than the L-5 Wes version.
Even the L-5 laminate copies like Washuburn J-6s are darker compared to the carved ones. But mostly I am speaking about set humbuckers. Not really sure about floating pickups, i didnt find the exact relation there.
In my experience resonance makes the amplified tone much more richer, brighter and also the lows are emphatized by the resonance. But the brightness can be easily and succesfully overcomed by rolling the treble down.
Sorry about my english which is far from being perfect.
Thanks to everyone who can contribute to answer this question.
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08-28-2018 01:42 PM
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Don't use those teflon string saver saddles, those cut the high frequency overtones and you cant dial them back in. I have them and i know firsthand.
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Gustavo,
Congratulations, your English is better than mine (and I am a native)
I make the initial assumption that better tone produced acoustically means better tone when amplified...
It is quite provable... Record my voice singing through any microphone.
Then repeat using maybe Elvis, or Aretha instead of me... I'm betting they sound better
Nice carved top L5 should sound much better than a laminated 175 all day.
Also, as you point out, the CES will be darker than the WesMo do to the dampening factor
due to extra PU.
Pickups will come into play when it is set versus floating, not sure if a floater can compete with a
57 or Seth Lover or active PU's like EMG etc...
Maybe take my microphone example above and record Elvis with a condenser mic like an AKG414,
then record him with a dynamic mic like an SM57.
I'm betting the condenser will have a tone which more closely matches the original.
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a fave vid from fellow forum member grez of grez guitars..about body resonance
as much about the luthiers skills as the actual general design
cheers
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The sound of a plugged in electric archtop is a mix of acoustic and amplified sound.
When comparing just the amplified tone, you first have to isolate the loud acoustic tone. A simple solution is to record the guitar through a digital amp modeler. A better solution is to mike your amp directionally in front of the speaker, put it behind a screen and make sure that the amp volume is loud enough so that any background noise (including the acoustic sound from the guitar) gets below the noise threshold. If you on the other hand like to record the sound you hear, you need another mike in front of the guitar to pick up the acoustics and then mix it with the signal from the speaker.
You, the player, will never be able to assess just the amplified tone when playing as you are too close to the loud acoustic guitar; Even when playing loud amplified, you'll still hear the high acoustic frequencies and feel the vibrations from the low frequencies.
Even though we often prioritize the sound projected to the listener, we cannot overlook the sound perceived by the player (you play better, when you like what you hear). And since most players spend time practicing with their guitars unplugged (even solid guitars), we often tend to favor guitars with a nice acoustic sound.
However, spending more time practicing plugged in and perform with a live drummer and horns, chances are preferences will be reevaluated. Some people like to use piezo transducer microphones to emphasize more of the acoustic sound character that got lost in the mix.
In conclusion; the acoustic component matters. A brighter guitar will project further and preserve more of the acoustic sound, not necessarily the most expensive, or the guitar with the best sounding isolated acoustics.
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Jcat i agree with you, playing an instrument you like is very important.
Thanks everyone for yoyrs answers, maybe i should change the title of the thread and say " how the magnetic pickups sound are changed by the acoustic resonance"
Since I am doing some direct injection recordings of fingerpicking jazz guitar i wanted to know your thoughts about it, i found the sound of laminated archtop a little bit dull and unexpresdivd compared to sound of the carved ones.
Originally Posted by JCat
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The pickup "hears" the vibrating string that in turn is affected by the anchor points, nut, saddles, your picking attack and the resonance of the guitar (feedback of energy to the strings). The amplified signal is of a different nature than the acoustic sound. You could never tell what the acoustic sound would be like just by listening to the amplified guitar signal and vv. Originally Posted by Gustavo Eiriz
If the pickup vibrates under the strings, this would also generate a signal. A dogear P-90, directly mounted onto the top of a hollowbody, will vibrate more than a spring mounted pickup in a solidbody. Enough to make a difference? I believe so. I also believe that If the top is light and vibrates vividly it could affect the amplified tone in a negative way.
I could'n tell a carved top from a laminated just by comparing the amplified tone, but I'm interested to hear what others have to say.
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I think the vibration of the pickup does affect the amplified tone. As the pickup moves under the vibrating strings, it changes the sound slightly. The effect is subtle, but it's there. A laminated top also vibrates, not just a solid carved top. This is the reason I prefer a set pickup instead of a floater. I want to hear the complexity of tone induced by the vibrating pickup. Really, the top doesn't vibrate much near the neck where the pickup is installed, which is why a neck pickup doesn't affect acoustic sound very much, but there is some, enough to color the sound slightly.
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Carved top instruments tend to have more sustain. However, there is variance even among materially similar instruments. I think carved top Epiphones tend to have more evenness and sustain than their Gibson counterparts. It's not necessarily good or bad, just as neither laminate nor carved is necessarily preferred for an electric archtop. (Although my preference is probably carved with a floating pickup of the DeArmond variety.)
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BTW, I've heard the "a set pickup vibrates with the resonating top" mantra a lot, but I've never heard a description of why people think that's the case. I mean, I understand that the pickup is coupled with the body and therefore energy is transferred to the pickup and causes it to vibrate. But I don't get how that impacts the sound. I've always been curious.
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The signal is induced in the pickup by the vibrations of the string moving through the pup's magnetic field. The harmonic content of the signal is affected by the shape and density of the field and the angle at which the string moves through it. That density and geometry is affected by the movement of the pup. Because the pup is moving with the top, the top's vibrations are introduced to the signal. That's the a priori hypothesis. I don't know if it has been tested experimentally, but it seems plausible to me. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
John
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Other part of what is considered "tone" is the transient. I believe that a more resonant instrument suck the energy from the strings movement making the sustain been shorter... But also the attack is more strong, so it makes a more percussive and clear sound to me. Thats mainly the difference between 1 pickup or 2 pickup fixed in the top. IMHO Originally Posted by John A.
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Changing the pickup height certainly changes the amplified sound. When the top, and the pickup, vibrate, it's changing the pickup height, ever so slightly, as well as changing the magnetic field the strings are in. Again, it's subtle. But if it didn't happen, then why does a solid-body sound different to a hollow archtop when amplified?
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Utterly plausible! It makes sense. The signal changes because the frame of reference of the magnetic field is changing. I'm now curious about your speculation regarding the correlation between the string movement and the pickup movement. Originally Posted by John A.
Seems like you might be attributing most of the difference in tone to the movement of the pickup. The construction of the body and the bridge also affect the vibration of the strings. So to answer your question, one additional factor would be that the strings themselves vibrate differently on a hollow body than on a solid body. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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On a guitar, everything affects everything else. I don't believe any one factor overrides any other. But some are more important than others.
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Regarding all that was discussed above, I always wonder why Gibson doesnt make a Citation model with set humbucker. One posible answer could be that a too resonant acoustic guitar doesnt translate into a beautiful amplified sound? Originally Posted by sgosnell
My experience testing L-5 Wes model is that strange high frecuency brightness appears when you play the guitar louder. Things like that doesnt happen at all in the CES model.
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I'm not sure I understand the question, but ... Imagine how a string vibrates, not in a pure sine wave, but in a complex pattern which causes its harmonic characteristics. Now imagine a guitar top set into vibration by being coupled to the string by the bridge, and further setting the volume of air inside the guitar into vibration, which then interacts with the top's string-induced vibrations. The top is now moving in a complex waveform determined by these interactions plus whatever resonant properties it has. Now attach a pickup to that top. Its magnetic field would be dancing around along with the top. Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
John
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I'm just asking out of genuine curiosity. Originally Posted by John A.
The strings vibrate according to a complex sinusoidal function f(x) = y. This sets the top in motion, which sets the the pickup in motion, which means the frame of reference of the magnetic field is also now moving according to a function governed by another complex sinusoid, g(f(x)), or g(y). So this whole interactive phenomenon can be called h(x), which is the 'x factor' of the set pickup, where h(x) = g(f(x)) = z. My question was, what do you actually think g(y) looks like? Since g(y) is causally dependent on f(x), my first thought is that g(y) would be f(x) + some_time_lag + stochastic_noise + whatever goes on between the strings and the top. I think we are thinking along the same lines, just wondering what the relationship people hear is. Sure, the complex sinusoid of your string signal is now affected by the fact that the frame is moving according to a complex sinusoidal pattern - what's the product of these interactions?
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As long as you remember that it is just as plausible that any vibration reaching a set-in pickup may be destructively out-of-phase with the string vibrations. . . Originally Posted by John A.
I've totally jettisoned the notion that acoustic tone has any relation to a magnetic pickup tone, which isn't to say I dislike the sound of electric archtops. Further, if I really want to hear what an amplified archtop sounds like I either put on headphones or hand the guitar to someone else and move to the other end of the room.
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I dont know enough math to think about it that specifically. But I suspect that Beware! Beyond thar be fast Fourier trsnsforms! Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
John
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Now ..many people can not hear the tone of a Solid Body unplugged because you need a
quiet environment.
Here's strong evidence :
Remember those Nonex strings that sound really bright and twangy unplugged -
BUT when you plug the Guitar in -the Amplified Tone is super deep and dark and thuddy sounding ?
They are nonexistent .
Brighter strings sound brighter plugged in ALWAYS.
Put chapstick on your strings they sound a little duller through your Amp AND unplugged.
Put Old Strings on your Guitar ..and they sound duller (less hi end ) through the Amp EVEN if you don't mention it to the Amp - lol.
Now it IS true that the magnetic 'Pickups' do NOT report any Acoustic Data- BUT they are very very sensitive .
SO for example use ANY technique that makes a brighter ACOUSTIC sound [ pick with finger nails / use a metal pick etc/pick near bridge /...and it WILL transmitted or reported to the Amp.
Use ANY technique that makes a duller less treble sound Acoustically [ play with fingers -no nails/ felt pick /pick near fingerboard etc etc.] will sound darker thru the Amp .
So HOW do the Pickups 'know '- they report amplitude/harmonic content /dynamics/ frequency over time / etc etc and other things.
BUT it happens at the string first.
So IF your Spruce Les Paul sounds different unplugged it will sound different plugged in.
And IF two ES 175s sound vastly different unplugged but have the same electronics and set up the Brighter one unplugged will tend to sound brighter plugged in.
How to PREDICT this before it's built ?
That's tougher- FAR easier to tell after the Guitar is built.
A Guitar leans strongly in the direction of it's acoustic unplugged tone is the simple guideline .
Even if you put your ear to the Guitar..the string area near the bridge sounds different the pickups are reporting that.
IF construction or top wood affects the Unplugged tone ...it will get through generally to the pickups and to the Amp.
The problem is you can't tell for sure if the Spruce top is darker than a Koa top until after it's built etc etc.
Also some people don't hear the unplugged tones very well....especially on Solid Bodies.
People who wind and make pickups will tell youthe same pickup will sound different on different Guitars.
Obviously you can put a super bassy sounding pickup on a really thin sounding Guitar like a Strat but a Strat leans strongly in the direction of it's unplugged tone.
Strat bodies shallow break angle over headstock, floating bridge , gaps in neck pockets tend to de-couple the string from the body ....so the Body does not add much low end or filter much of the highs ...twangy thin but transparent tone...changes a lot with Humbuckers but still a little bright and twangy with PAFs...for example.
IF you block and deck a tremelo on a Strat - you will usually hear a louder and fuller unplugged tone more low mids etc.
This is the low end enhancement from the Body and it is "reported" by the pickups.
Some Guitars have more low end even resonance all over the fingerboard including the high E and B strings so the higher strings are less shrill.
Some Guitars seem to have sweeter intonation all over the neck even when set up equally by a tech and less dissonance unplugged on extended chords .
Fuller sounding E and B strings AND sweeter more in Tune all over the neck on Chords will make a Player sound better and the converse is true also.Last edited by Robertkoa; 09-15-2018 at 01:06 PM.
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I agree and think this is a good place to start. Originally Posted by sgosnell
Then, the next step to me is: Is the guitar plugged in or is it not ?
To me, " Everything affects everything else, everything matters, until you plug in." Then really, once you amplify the sound, is there anything at all that can't be corrected with a decent amp and someone who knows how to set it up ?
MHO
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Let me add something about Strats (bolt on neck guitars in general)... Originally Posted by Robertkoa
One of the things about these types of guitars is a disconcerting variation in tone among the same models, which is a big driver for "play before you buy". This variation is caused by numerous things, but one in particular lends itself to "bring a Philips head screwdriver when you shop".
When a Strat is manufactured, the neck is bolted on, then the strings are applied and tuned up, then setup adjustments are finalized. A large variation in tone depends on whether the neck needed to be adjusted.
When the neck is bolted on before stringing, there is little or no pressure or contact between the butt end of the neck and the end of the neck pocket that receives it. The bolts are tight enough that friction keeps the neck in that position even after the strings are put on.
If the neck needs adjustment after stringing, the bolts are loosened and the tension of the strings pulls the neck very firmly into the neck pocket (70-90 lbs of pressure) to make a very solid contact between the body and the neck... then after adjustment and tightening the bolts, that contact is held firm even during subsequent string changes.
Many players owning Strats with firm contact pockets that have had work done on their Strat involving removal of the neck have been shocked, dismayed, and confused to discover that the work "killed their tone" or made their Strat "sound dead". What happened is that their previously tight contact between the body and neck was relieved because the neck was bolted tight after the work, before strings were put back on.
Many a dull sounding Strat (even from day one) has been awoken by slowly loosening the bolts with the strings on at full tension until the neck "pops" as it slides a fraction of a mm to make solid firm contact in the pocket. After re-tightening the bolts it stays this way.
The opposite can happen, too. A light neck pocket contact may be the primary mechanics responsible for one's preferred tone if you play a Strat for jazz - a darker thump rather than a bright twang. If the neck pocket "pop" is incident to work on the guitar it will shift the tone and response toward the brighter spectrum.
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I'm with Robert and other like minds on this. What I hear is that if the string vibrates differently on a guitar, that difference will be 'reported' to the amp. (I like that reported thing)
I have two 16" carved arch tops. Almost identical in spec: same depth, maple body, spruce top, ebony finger board, scale length etc. One is an Eastman 880 Pisano. The other is a Bernie Lehman 'Session Sixteen'. The Eastman is a lighter carve than the Lehman and has a more open sound with more of the higher harmonics in the acoustic sound. The Lehman has a stronger fundamental tone. It 'sings' a little more if you know what I mean.
That's my acoustic comparison. Plugged in? They both have Kent A's hand wound 12 pole Pafs. The Eastman is set and the Lehman floats. A/B ing the two into the same amp with all the same settings I hear the difference. In a band environment I don't think anyone would notice, but they 'feel' different to play. My interaction with the sound is different.
BTW: I have adjusted poles and pickup heights such that the volume is very close between the two, even though the Lehman has bronze on it and the Eastman has nickel.
Another part of this is that when folks talk about the diff between a set and floating pickup, a lot of times they're comparing a full size hum bucker to a mini. In this case the pickups are about as close as you can get in build.
I can't prove it, but it feels like the difference in the acoustic character is being 'reported' by the amp faithfully.
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Intersting, which differences between each other do you notice?
Originally Posted by ccroft
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