Guitar Fret Buzzing in the Winter

[John A.]

I live in New York, where winters are cold and dry, apartments are overheated with steam radiators that can't be regulated in the apartment (just turned on or off), and summers are hot and humid. For most of my guitar playing life, this has meant tightening truss rods in the winter and loosening them in the summer to maintain consistent relief and action. With all the guitars I've owned, this did the trick. I've never experienced cracking or fret issues associated with insufficient humidity, so I've never used a humidifier or really thought about compensating for dry air at home. So when I picked up a Godin Kingpin archtop in fall 2017, I assumed the same regime would apply.

Shortly after I got the guitar, I started getting some fret buzz, and took it to a luthier, who told me it was because the cantilevered neck extension was moving upward due to temp and humidity changes. He said there wasn't much to be done and that this would likely be a seasonal thing -- he filed some frets, raised the bridge saddle, and tweaked the truss rod, and that seemed to fix the problem. Come spring, I dropped the bridge back down a bit, with no buzz issues.

This winter, I did my usual seasonal truss rod thing as the heat started coming on, and then after an extended period of extreme of cold and non-stop steam heat, I started getting a ton of fret buzz, to the point that the guitar was fretting out almost completely on frets 10-14. I cranked the bridge up (in stages, several times), but the buzz kept coming back. A bit of research suggested to me that (lack of) humidity might be the culprit (which wouldn't have occurred to me before), so I ordered an in-case humidifier. While waiting for that, I took a closer look at the neck, and saw that there was basically no relief (I usually like a little). This kind of surprised me since my usual seasonal problem is too much relief. So I tried loosening the truss rod (something I've never done before at this time of year). To my surprise (not expecting much effect on upper frets), this improved things. Then I got the humidifier, and between a week's worth of that and loosening the truss rod, the buzz is pretty much gone.

Lesson learned for me? Not all guitars behave the same way under changing conditions of temperature and humidity. Next year, I'll be humidifying as soon as the heat comes on, and probably leaving the truss rod alone.

John

[deacon Mark]

My guitars and experience is they have not reacted this way. That is not say your situation is not valid but it leaves me asking other questions. My customers do not present what you describe either to any degree. I suspect it is simply this guitar itself possibly others of same make but not necessarily. I have seen some guitars they use green wood and no stability at all or poorly thought out in design. Could simply be to large of corrections made by turning rod. 1/4 turn is a lot.

[John A.]

My guitars and experience is they have not reacted this way. That is not say your situation is not valid but it leaves me asking other questions. My customers do not present what you describe either to any degree. I suspect it is simply this guitar itself possibly others of same make but not necessarily. I have seen some guitars they use green wood and no stability at all or poorly thought out in design. Could simply be to large of corrections made by turning rod. 1/4 turn is a lot.

All I know is what happened. A little relief and a little humidity, and the buzz is gone. I'll take it.

John

[daverepair]

I don't know if your Godin has a solid wood top, but in my experience, lack of humidification in the winter heating season can indeed be a cause of fret buzz, because a solid wood top shrinks, and lowers the action. I've found a few guitar necks that also react to low humidity, by bending slightly, thus increasing or decreasing relief(also a cause of buzz). An adjustable truss rod is not intended to correct buzz problems due to lack of humidity. Sounds like you've alleviated your problem, by using a humidifier.

[TH]

I'm in Boston. I work in a shop where I'm dealing with the issues and ails of a very large community of musicians. In my years I have never seen anything like this year. There's been no snow and the cumulative days/weeks of dryness, even with humidification have caused repairs like I've never seen. Last week someone brought in a guitar that had literally exploded in the room she was in. The top was pretzeling into concavity, the back warping the other direction and the side literally split an 8 inch split with a centre strip between the two halves being flung across the room.
Each week I've got a new "Now I've seen everything" repair walking through the door. Shrunken neck heel blocks pulling the neck into set angles I can't reset... Yeah, I can only urge everyone to humidify the room, humidify the case, humidify the guitar. I have people bringing their guitars into the bathroom when they shower. Desperate times. A bad year here.

David

[deacon Mark]

All I know is what happened. A little relief and a little humidity, and the buzz is gone. I'll take it.

John

John, this is good news an exactly the thing to say hey it worked. Humidity can be and issue and frankly to have the most stable guitar it is best to have the wood used that has been naturally dried and very stable. I have maple boards and neck blanks that are at least 10 years old. If these are used on a guitar it is much more likely to be stable in changes in the humidity and environment. There are situations where manufactures use green wood or wood the is dried in a kiln and then hurried into a guitar. Not the best thing to do as it will not reach a set point. I know the makers I worked with always dipped then ends of the tops and backs in paraffin wax to avoid dying to quickly or absorbing moisture.

I am not a fan of working with mahogany but it can make for a nice warm sounding guitar. I prefer the traditional spruce, ebony, maple,and rosewood works too although Jimmy D'aquisto did not care for it. Birdseye Maple is the hardest maple and if you can get that stuff and it is dry it can be incredibly stable.

[John A.]

I don't know if your Godin has a solid wood top, but in my experience, lack of humidification in the winter heating season can indeed be a cause of fret buzz, because a solid wood top shrinks, and lowers the action. I've found a few guitar necks that also react to low humidity, by bending slightly, thus increasing or decreasing relief(also a cause of buzz). An adjustable truss rod is not intended to correct buzz problems due to lack of humidity. Sounds like you've alleviated your problem, by using a humidifier.

The top is laminated cherry, but it's very thin and has lively acoustic properties (for a lamimate, at any rate). My I suspect both the neck and the top are involved in the problem, and hence it took both humidity and relief to address it. But at this point, I'm in "hey, whatever works works" mode without thinking too much about why.

Johm

[John A.]

John, this is good news an exactly the thing to say hey it worked. Humidity can be and issue and frankly to have the most stable guitar it is best to have the wood used that has been naturally dried and very stable. I have maple boards and neck blanks that are at least 10 years old. If these are used on a guitar it is much more likely to be stable in changes in the humidity and environment. There are situations where manufactures use green wood or wood the is dried in a kiln and then hurried into a guitar. Not the best thing to do as it will not reach a set point. I know the makers I worked with always dipped then ends of the tops and backs in paraffin wax to avoid dying to quickly or absorbing moisture.

I am not a fan of working with mahogany but it can make for a nice warm sounding guitar. I prefer the traditional spruce, ebony, maple,and rosewood works too although Jimmy D'aquisto did not care for it. Birdseye Maple is the hardest maple and if you can get that stuff and it is dry it can be incredibly stable.

This guitar is laminated cherry top, back, and sides, and the neck is maple with a scarfed headstock and spliced heel. It's such an "engineered" product that I suspect the typical thinking about solid woods doesn't really apply.

John

[Midnight Blues]

I'm surprised he said that to you. Coming from New York as well (until recently) as best you can, you should always try to keep the humidity between 45%-55% and that includes for solid bodies as well. The fretboard, unless it's sealed, needs moisture too.

Glad it's working for you!

[ptchristopher3]

This guitar is laminated cherry top, back, and sides, and the neck is maple with a scarfed headstock and spliced heel. It's such an "engineered" product that I suspect the typical thinking about solid woods doesn't really apply.

John

Agreed. And as someone who has worked with solid woods for 45 years, much of what is preached to you is lore anyway.

I am also in the northeast usa and am dumping a good 3 gallons of water per day into a very modest sized room to keep it around 45% RH.

Crazy dry winter here.

John - Great to hear that you have stabilized the situation. If I may ask about a detail - if you had checked the action at the 12th fret before and after the great dry-out of 2019, that could have made it easier to consider what wood was moving in what direction to give your buzz.

But of course the important part is that you have the situation under control.

[John A.]

Agreed. And as someone who has worked with solid woods for 45 years, much of what is preached to you is lore anyway.

I am also in the northeast usa and am dumping a good 3 gallons of water per day into a very modest sized room to keep it around 45% RH.

Crazy dry winter here.

John - Great to hear that you have stabilized the situation. If I may ask about a detail - if you had checked the action at the 12th fret before and after the great dry-out of 2019, that could have made it easier to consider what wood was moving in what direction to give your buzz.

But of course the important part is that you have the situation under control.

I didn't measure the action at the 12th earlier this season, or measure anything at all. I judged relief by eye and action by feel, until the last week or so when the buzzing got really bad. I'm being more careful now, looking at relief and action at the 12 and 5-7th frets. Next year, I plan to be more systematic about the whole thing.

John

[cosmic gumbo]

When I read buzzing in the winter, I thought you meant recreation in Canada.

[deacon Mark]

Agreed. And as someone who has worked with solid woods for 45 years, much of what is preached to you is lore anyway.

I am also in the northeast usa and am dumping a good 3 gallons of water per day into a very modest sized room to keep it around 45% RH.

Crazy dry winter here.

John - Great to hear that you have stabilized the situation. If I may ask about a detail - if you had checked the action at the 12th fret before and after the great dry-out of 2019, that could have made it easier to consider what wood was moving in what direction to give your buzz.

But of course the important part is that you have the situation under control.

I am curious what is the lore being preached?

[snoskier63]

I live in the Boston area as well, so drastic seasonal changes in humidity are expected. As daverepair said, truss rods do not exist to repeatedly correct for changes in humidity. While they provide the ability to change the amount of relief in a neck, continuously adjusting a truss rod means that you are never allowing your guitar to properly stabilize. As dry as it gets here in the Boston area my guitars need the subtlest of adjustments only occasionally, and probably less than once per year. In the summer I keep them on stands and do nothing but utilize air conditioning. When the RH dips to 35% or less, usually by late November or early December, I place each guitar back in its case with an Arion case humidifier that lasts 4-6 weeks, and I fire up my Essick humidifier set to 45% (rated for 2400 square feet of coverage). I refill its tanks 1-2 times each day depending on the weather, and on days when the temp rises into the 40s or 50s I temporarily turn it off as the RH naturally returns to the low 40s. Sure, it’s a little work to refill and keep clean, but as a result my guitars rarely need adjusting, even my Guild F50R acoustic. For that I do use a soundhole humidifier which needs refilling at least once each week. My advice is to forget about the truss rod, and utilize humidity instead to keep your guitars playing well. And fwiw, I have three Guild archtops from 2013 (one with a carved top), a 2009 (I think) Guild acoustic that is very thin and light, and a new Eastman thinline. All guitars have a nitro finish. Good luck!

[John A.]

When I read buzzing in the winter, I thought you meant recreation in Canada.

Ah, someone finally sees through all my euphemism and misdirection ...

John

[ptchristopher3]

I am curious what is the lore being preached?

Lots of lore regarding wood. But one example:

The technology used to initially dry the wood (kiln vs. air) has no practical impact whatsoever on the final stability of the wood when it is cut to rough dimension after initial drying, then stabilized and maintained at a moisture content level consistent with the other wood in the guitar, and consistent with the ambient conditons under which the guitar will be built and played.

Wood moves in reaction to variation in moisture content under several very different circumstances, and to very widely varying extents based on wood species and the orientation of the wood axes in question (radial, tangential, longitudinal). We could slog through many long descriptions of what happens and why, none of which are affected by the technology (kiln vs. air) used for initial drying of the wood.

Lore seems to grab onto the fun and comforting simplicity of saying the technology of the initial drying of the wood is what matters.

John was not having fret buzz because a kiln was or was not used to initially dry the wood in his guitar.

EDIT: I suppose one could argue that the heat in kiln drying could relieve some internal stresses in the wood and result in greater stability. I do not believe this to be at all true in practice. Further, it is comically the opposite of what the lore preaches.

[deacon Mark]

[QUOTE=ptchristopher3;932668]Lots of lore regarding wood. But one example:

The technology used to initially dry the wood (kiln vs. air) has no practical impact whatsoever on the final stability of the wood when it is cut to rough dimension after initial drying, then stabilized and maintained at a moisture content level consistent with the other wood in the guitar, and consistent with the ambient conditons under which the guitar will be built and played.

Wood moves in reaction to variation in moisture content under several very different circumstances, and to very widely varying extents based on wood species and the orientation of the wood axes in question (radial, tangential, longitudinal). We could slog through many long descriptions of what happens and why, none of which are affected by the technology (kiln vs. air) used for initial drying of the wood.

Lore seems to grab onto the fun and comforting simplicity of saying the technology of the initial drying of the wood is what matters.

John was not having fret buzz because a kiln was or was not used to initially dry the wood in his guitar.

EDIT: I suppose one could argue that the heat in kiln drying could relieve some internal stresses in the wood and result in greater stability. I do not believe this to be at all true in practice. Further, it is comically the opposite of what the lore preaches.[/QUOTE

Interesting never heard anyone I was around say that or explain. Certainly his buzzing neck issue not related to how the wood was dried. I know the 2 guitar makers I worked with like to have the wood sit around for a long time to be certain of stability and moisture content. They had tops and backs dipped in wax to avoid drying too fast and splitting. Probably due to of course the dry winter inside air. It seemed that wood that was allowed to air dry to the final use was the goal. My understanding was kiln dry could actually take moisture content too low for awhile. Maybe that was lore I don’t know. I just remembered when they bought wood it was not going to be used for a couple of years. I do though generally believe binding around f holes can seal the top better.

Then the whole thing regarding laminated necks vs one piece. To me it is all over the map. Not sure was is best as experience says both have worked and i have no failure stats. During the summer here in Illinois is when I notice the most changes and it usually happens in August the hot muggy. Typically the action creeps up a bit I don’t notice with the neck itself. Of course these are acoustic guitars that it makes the most difference. Thanks for the explanation. Yes there is tons of lore on wood!

[Ol' Fret]

Some general observations and loose thoughts - no offense meant to anyone here!


1. Hygrometers
The cheap hygrometers that guitar players usually acquire will tell anything but the correct actual relative humidity RH. Just make a test, buy several of them, and decide which particular hygrometer you prefer to believe - deviations of 20 percent are the rule …


2. Guitar necks, woods and the adjustable truss rod
So many variables can lead to buzzing and fretting out, nobody else but the maker of a particular guitar will be able to tell - provided he'd be knowledgeable. Usually, lot's of different workers are involved in the making, so no chance to find out.

If we concentrate on the guitar neck only, and do not consider any buzzing caused by improper or worn frets as the single reason, one big complex of problems will remain: the use of just so-so, or even worse selected woods, and/or improper manufacturing (such as the time factor not considered, etc.), and/or the combination with an adjustable truss rod.

While the (vertical) neck thickness or taper increases linearly from the nut to the neck joint, this will - in combination with a stiff reinforcement that is fixed/glued at every point over its whole length - balance out the string tension in a mechanically almost uniform and even way.
Adjustable truss rods may look to provide the same, but they can't because they apply pressure only to a very small area of the neck, roughly, but not strictly around the seventh fret. According to Euler's characteristic deformations of buckling (Buckling - Wikipedia ), spring-loaded adjustable guitar truss rods lead to something between the "Fixed - Fixed" and "Fixed - Pinned" modes. That can result in a uneven load distribution within the neck, which, in turn, can lead to almost invisible local buckling areas of the neck / fretboard. Now, if RH changes are affecting too much or too acute a particular neck wood/construction/stiffness, and people start to strain the truss rods more, the neck load and buckling will even get worse, and so on - bingo, buzzing!
It's a well known story, not just theoretical considering (so shrugging my shoulders here).


3. Air dryed vs. kiln-dried woods for guitar making
Without doubt properly kiln-dried woods will lead to good results. However, the 'reputation' of some kiln-dryers has been affecting the whole business. More profit making is in the store, and a few black sheeps shorten the time in the oven considerably by enhancing temperatures over the proven and recommended procedures. Problem is that this is impossible to recognize for the commercial tonewood resellers and guitar makers.
The optimal wood for acoustic archtop guitars is considered to be air-dryed for, at least, four to five years, and, if possible, gone through several seasons and natural cycles of RH changes. Time being nothing but money today, that slow aging process is cut. The old luthiers still knew how to do it; they had their stashs under the porch, or on the well ventilated attic, or even outside - these woods react to RH swings hardly ever in a malicious manner:


Höfner - outdoor tonewood storage in Schönbach in the 1930s



Roger - laminated neck blanks in Mittenwald, 1956


4. Extreme weather conditions, like in Michigan some weeks ago, demand proper humidification measures

... it is currently -18 F, and the outside humidity is 70%. That means that when this air is brought inside and heated to 70 F, the relative humidity inside will be below 2%.
Why does it matter? When we have cold conditions like this, it is followed by repair people getting a flood of crack repairs, and the usual question from the owner is, "Why did this happen? I never took special precautions before, and nothing ever happened until now".

Well, we really don't have to bother about humidification - when becoming a saxophone or brass player. They always keep their instruments 'hydrated'.

[sgosnell]

Relative humidity isn't a very useful measurement, because it doesn't actually measure the amount of water vapor in the air. What matters here is the actual amount of water vapor in the air. Relative humidity is the ratio of water vapor in the air compared to the maximum amount of water vapor the air could hold, at that temperature . There is exactly as much water in the air at 30F and 90%RH as at 90F and 10%RH. Cool the air to -30F and there is almost no water vapor present, although the RH is almost certainly at or near 100%. At 50%RH, there is about twice as much water in the air at 70F compared to 50F. Keeping a room at 50% RH doesn't mean much unless you factor in the temperature. If you keep the room warmer, you don't need as much relative humidity.

[sgcim]

Some general observations and loose thoughts - no offense meant to anyone here!


1. Hygrometers
The cheap hygrometers that guitar players usually acquire will tell anything but the correct actual relative humidity RH. Just make a test, buy several of them, and decide which particular hygrometer you prefer to believe - deviations of 20 percent are the rule …


2. Guitar necks, woods and the adjustable truss rod
So many variables can lead to buzzing and fretting out, nobody else but the maker of a particular guitar will be able to tell - provided he'd be knowledgeable. Usually, lot's of different workers are involved in the making, so no chance to find out.

If we concentrate on the guitar neck only, and do not consider any buzzing caused by improper or worn frets as the single reason, one big complex of problems will remain: the use of just so-so, or even worse selected woods, and/or improper manufacturing (such as the time factor not considered, etc.), and/or the combination with an adjustable truss rod.

While the (vertical) neck thickness or taper increases linearly from the nut to the neck joint, this will - in combination with a stiff reinforcement that is fixed/glued at every point over its whole length - balance out the string tension in a mechanically almost uniform and even way.
Adjustable truss rods may look to provide the same, but they can't because they apply pressure only to a very small area of the neck, roughly, but not strictly around the seventh fret. According to Euler's characteristic deformations of buckling (Buckling - Wikipedia ), spring-loaded adjustable guitar truss rods lead to something between the "Fixed - Fixed" and "Fixed - Pinned" modes. That can result in a uneven load distribution within the neck, which, in turn, can lead to almost invisible local buckling areas of the neck / fretboard. Now, if RH changes are affecting too much or too acute a particular neck wood/construction/stiffness, and people start to strain the truss rods more, the neck load and buckling will even get worse, and so on - bingo, buzzing!
It's a well known story, not just theoretical considering (so shrugging my shoulders here).


3. Air dryed vs. kiln-dried woods for guitar making
Without doubt properly kiln-dried woods will lead to good results. However, the 'reputation' of some kiln-dryers has been affecting the whole business. More profit making is in the store, and a few black sheeps shorten the time in the oven considerably by enhancing temperatures over the proven and recommended procedures. Problem is that this is impossible to recognize for the commercial tonewood resellers and guitar makers.
The optimal wood for acoustic archtop guitars is considered to be air-dryed for, at least, four to five years, and, if possible, gone through several seasons and natural cycles of RH changes. Time being nothing but money today, that slow aging process is cut. The old luthiers still knew how to do it; they had their stashs under the porch, or on the well ventilated attic, or even outside - these woods react to RH swings hardly ever in a malicious manner:


Höfner - outdoor tonewood storage in Schönbach in the 1930s



Roger - laminated neck blanks in Mittenwald, 1956


4. Extreme weather conditions, like in Michigan some weeks ago, demand proper humidification measures

... it is currently -18 F, and the outside humidity is 70%. That means that when this air is brought inside and heated to 70 F, the relative humidity inside will be below 2%.
Why does it matter? When we have cold conditions like this, it is followed by repair people getting a flood of crack repairs, and the usual question from the owner is, "Why did this happen? I never took special precautions before, and nothing ever happened until now".

Well, we really don't have to bother about humidification - when becoming a saxophone or brass player. They always keep their instruments 'hydrated'.

Do you think case humidifiers (like the ones Oasis makes) are sufficient to prevent cracks and neck problems?

[ccroft]

Relative humidity is kinda useful in that it is an indication of how "thirsty" the air is. As has been pointed out, take cold air from outside with 'normal' RH, heat it up and blow it into the house and you have a blow dryer. On the other hand, air at close to 100% RH is more likely to impart moisture than suck it up.

But you're right. It's really about moisture content of the wood, and that's directly related to the moisture content and temperature of the air. RH is a measurement of both temperature and moisture content of air.

We would ideally have our instruments at about 8% moisture content by weight if we're using them in RH around 40 to 50%... pretty normal inside a house. This is considered to be 'Equilibrium Moisture Content'. That's when the moisture content of the wood isn't changed by the humidity and temperature of the air. In other words, it's not expanding or contracting.

Take the wood to a different climate with higher or lower RH and the wood will change. Sealing the wood with coatings will slow that way down. Keeping it in a portable environment at equilibrium will help as well :)

Another thing to keep in mind is that it takes time for wood to absorb or lose moisture. That's why it takes years to properly air dry wood for interior use.

[John A.]

Do you think case humidifiers (like the ones Oasis makes) are sufficient to prevent cracks and neck problems?

That's what I'm using now. At the risk of post hoc ergo propter hoc, I'd say it helps with the neck.

John

[snoskier63]

As I mentioned previously, I put an Arion case humidifier in each case in the winter along with a whole house humidifier in my family room set at 45%. I just took my Guild AA out of its case for the first time in about three weeks. I put my Strobo Clip on it to tune it using the guitar sweetener mode, and I’ll be damned if it wasn’t in perfect tune. I didn’t have to even look at the tuners! As for the truss rod, I don’t think I’ve touched it more than twice in the 5+ years I’ve had it. All of my Guilds have similar tuning stability and require minimal adjustments despite dramatic seasonal weather differences in New England. I haven’t had my strat or Eastman long enough to compare their stability, but despite being considerably less costly I expect similar responses given the same environment.