Guitar Neck Dive

**FourOnSix** · 09-04-2019, 04:03 PM

I have a maple back and sides flattop guitar that is so lightweight in the body that it is slightly neck heavy. It has Schaller tuning machines with chrome buttons. I'm wondering if the weight difference between the chrome buttons and either wood or black mother of pearl buttons is significant enough that replacing the buttons might solve my neck dive problem. Anyone have any experience or insight?

Thanks.

**Socalbill** · 09-04-2019, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by FourOnSix

I have a maple back and sides flattop guitar that is so lightweight in the body that it is slightly neck heavy. It has Schaller tuning machines with chrome buttons. I'm wondering if the weight difference between the chrome buttons and either wood or black mother of pearl buttons is significant enough that replacing the buttons might solve my neck dive problem. Anyone have any experience or insight?

Thanks.

Hi, Yes I have gone through this with an Eastman oval hole acoustic that was famously neck heavy. Tuner buttons won’t get you there I’m guessing, but changing tuners will. Stewmac.com has good data on tuners and in most cases it shows the weight down in the tech specs, so take a look at that. I would recommend you experiment with adding a bit of weight to the strap button (hang something from it) at the base of the instrument in order to understand how much weight needs to be shifted, then either get lighter tuners or figure out a way to add weight inside the guitar. Is there a pickup system? Maybe add a soundhole pickup as a way to add weight to the body.
In my case it was new Sperzel tuners and some fish weights epoxied to the inside of the endpin assembly. It worked. Good luck with yours.
Bill

**sgosnell** · 09-04-2019, 05:29 PM

I have a very light Eastman thinline that had metal buttons and was neck-heavy. Replacing those with ebony buttons made it balance fairly well. I saved almost 60 grams, IIRC. It doesn't take a lot of weight removal to make a difference when the arm is so far from the center of gravity. The formula (weight x arm = moment) tells you how much difference it makes. Basically, the further a weight is from the center of gravity, the more effect it has. Removing an ounce from around the pickup has negligible effect, but removing it from the headstock has much more.

**TKMasuda** · 09-04-2019, 06:02 PM

I have a very light-bodied SG with a beefy mahogany neck, and the neck dive drove me nuts. I tried a number of different methods for balancing it out, including changing the tuners and adding a Bigsby. For a long time I had an old wallet or coin purse attached to the end-pin side of my guitar strap, and I filled it with some small steel weights. It was a very neck-heavy guitar, and it needed over a pound of counterweight. It was a pretty good solution but it only worked standing up and I would occasionally blackjack myself in the head taking the guitar off or on. Eventually a sculptor friend made a custom sized steel counterweight and I screwed the damn thing onto the guitar. Since yours is a flat top, I suppose you could screw some kind of counterweight block inside the guitar.

**Ray175** · 09-05-2019, 03:12 AM

If you prefer not to change parts or add fish-weights etc, a lot of people have had considerable success using a broad suede-backed strap to eliminate neck-dive - Levys do some good ones that work well (but at a price...)

**sgosnell** · 09-05-2019, 10:51 AM

The problem with adding weight to the body is that it goes very near the CG, so it takes a lot of weight. If you could add a bar that stuck well out from the endpin, or near it, that would require less weight, but it's not really practical. One thing I've found that does help is attaching the strap to the headstock, which allows the CG to move toward the headstock. It moves the entire guitar to the right, or can, which may not be appealing to some.

**Hammertone** · 09-05-2019, 12:11 PM

Replacing the Schallers with a high-quality set of Waverly or Gotoh open-back tuners will significantly improve the balance of the guitar. You'd need to use a set of "conversion bushings" as well. Coincidentally, I have Waverly and Gotoh open-back tuners for sale, conversion bushings included. :^)

**TKMasuda** · 09-05-2019, 02:06 PM

Another approach might be to attach helium balloons to the headstock.

**Gitterbug** · 09-05-2019, 03:00 PM

How about tying the strap just above the nut, like flattops used to be in the old times?

**KirkP** · 09-05-2019, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Gitterbug

How about tying the strap just above the nut, like flattops used to be in the old times?

I play two of my guitars that way, not for neck dive but because I didn’t want to drill a hole. It worked for Wes and it works for me.

**FourOnSix** · 09-05-2019, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

Replacing the Schallers with a high-quality set of Waverly or Gotoh open-back tuners will significantly improve the balance of the guitar. You'd need to use a set of "conversion bushings" as well. Coincidentally, I have Waverly and Gotoh open-back tuners for sale, conversion bushings included. :^)

I may end up selling the guitar and don't want to make any permanent alterations that would involve drilling new screw holes or leaving the old screw holes exposed. Otherwise, I agree this would probably be my best solution.

**FourOnSix** · 09-05-2019, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gitterbug

How about tying the strap just above the nut, like flattops used to be in the old times?

To be honest, I never use a strap unless I am performing on stage and standing. This is not a guitar I use for that purpose.

**FourOnSix** · 09-05-2019, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by sgosnell

The problem with adding weight to the body is that it goes very near the CG, so it takes a lot of weight. If you could add a bar that stuck well out from the endpin, or near it, that would require less weight, but it's not really practical. One thing I've found that does help is attaching the strap to the headstock, which allows the CG to move toward the headstock. It moves the entire guitar to the right, or can, which may not be appealing to some.

I prefer to play this guitar in my lap, seated, no strap. I'm starting to seriously consider selling it.

**FourOnSix** · 09-05-2019, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by TKMasuda

I have a very light-bodied SG with a beefy mahogany neck, and the neck dive drove me nuts. I tried a number of different methods for balancing it out, including changing the tuners and adding a Bigsby. For a long time I had an old wallet or coin purse attached to the end-pin side of my guitar strap, and I filled it with some small steel weights. It was a very neck-heavy guitar, and it needed over a pound of counterweight. It was a pretty good solution but it only worked standing up and I would occasionally blackjack myself in the head taking the guitar off or on. Eventually a sculptor friend made a custom sized steel counterweight and I screwed the damn thing onto the guitar. Since yours is a flat top, I suppose you could screw some kind of counterweight block inside the guitar.

I am considering selling the guitar. Screwing a block to the interior of the guitar would probably sabotage my chances of a sale.

**marcwhy** · 09-05-2019, 11:22 PM

Bass players discuss this a lot!

**cosmic gumbo** · 09-07-2019, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by FourOnSix

I am considering selling the guitar. Screwing a block to the interior of the guitar would probably sabotage my chances of a sale.

Yeah, selling it asap is probably your smartest move, with this notoriously horrible neck heavy clunker.

**archtopeddy** · 09-07-2019, 12:33 PM

I have a 1980 custom-made acoustic guitar which sounded great but with its set of period Schaller tuners, it always felt a bit heavy in the headstock. Recently, I changed them out for some lighter weighing Waverly copies. It helped with bringing balance to the guitar but affected the tone, making it a quieter and less distinct and bold. It lost a distinct character that I really liked. I changed it back to the Schallers and all was good again. My results might have been different if used actual Waverly tuners, but I think it was the difference in weight (and the fact that the Schaller tuners screw and bolt down from the top side as well as screw on from the back.) Anyway, I'm sure your results may be different, but I thought I'd share my experience with you. I just didn't think the weight would make that much of a difference -- Well, should'a known, of course.

**JaxJaxon** · 09-07-2019, 02:01 PM

the only thing I have done was to use a strap attached at the head stock. I avoid using guitars that are too neck heavy.

**LtKojak** · 09-10-2019, 08:34 AM

I just use a strap.

No neck dive ever with that.

**GNAPPI** · 09-10-2019, 09:30 AM

Every ES-335 I have or have had was body heavy, D'Angelico Semi DC's are decidedly neck heavy, a leather strap cures both issues.

**John A.** · 09-10-2019, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by GNAPPI

... D'Angelico Semi DC's are decidedly neck heavy ...

Mine is not at all neck heavy. It balances very well. It's an early one with as smaller headstock that doesn't flare the way the current ones do, and it has a stairstep tailpiece. Maybe that explains the difference (and/or the body a bit heavier for other reasons)

John

**JuanFM** · 01-29-2023, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by FourOnSix

I have a maple back and sides flattop guitar that is so lightweight in the body that it is slightly neck heavy. It has Schaller tuning machines with chrome buttons. I'm wondering if the weight difference between the chrome buttons and either wood or black mother of pearl buttons is significant enough that replacing the buttons might solve my neck dive problem. Anyone have any experience or insight?

Thanks.

Guitar center recommended an Ernie Ball Stretch Comfort strap, and it basically solved my neck dive problem without having to change hardware.

**jzucker** · 02-01-2023, 02:16 PM

manufacturers who make neck heavy guitars puzzle me. Such a simple engineering task. If they can't get that right, it makes me wonder what other shortcuts they've taken.

Using suede straps is a hack. Whenever I've done that, it ends up just pulling my shirt or coat up.

Jeff Hale used to attach fishing weights to the endpin jack of the Eastman El Rey's he used to sell. I've seen a few people tape fishing weights to the tail end of their guitar strap.