How do you feel about modelers?

[Peter C]

Heidegger was definitely into vintage German valve tech

[raylinds]

I have owned just about every modeler and profiler out there and before I start, I want to point out that the Kemper is not a modeler, but a profiler. The difference is important because a profiler captures the sound of an amp. being a "snapshot" of the amp with specific settings can sound great, but if you start to tweak the parameters, even the tone controls, the profiler manipulates the "snapshot" and it can start to sound off if the changes are fairly significant especially adjusting gain settings. That is why profiles that are sold by third parties have multiple profiles to offer "snapshots" with different settings. On the other hand a modeler simulates the amps' or effects' circuitry, including the ability to change settings. Profilers can sound great if the profile is what you are looking for, but has limits to the tweakibility.

Let me also preface by saying that I have historically been a tube snob- even my high-end Hi-Fi system has all tube mono block amps, preamp and phono stage. I have played with modelers fo over 20 years but always had a selection of tube amps and heads.
Modelers/Profilers I have owned or still owned going back over 20 years:
Hardware:
Kemper
Helix
Axe FX II and III
Various Line 6 Pods and rack units
Eleven Rack

Software:
Tonex
AmpliTube
Guitar Rig

My favorite amp has almost always been the Fender Twin Reverb- I've had several silver and black face models. When I turned sixty I decided that I could no longer lug around the heavy beast and decided it was not practical to play at reasonable volumes in my home and get a good tone, and miking cabs for recording was not practical in my home studio for a number of reasons. I heard good things about the Fender Twin Reverb solid state ToneMaster amp so I decided to audition it. I was shocked at how it sounded and reacted to my playing like a real tube amp! The biggest difference with modelers for me was how they felt and how they reacted to different picking or fingerpicking dynamics. The Fender nailed it!

When Fender came out with the ToneMaster Pro I got one because it can do my beloved Twin, but also Deluxe Reverbs, Princetons, Tweed Bassman, etc. I think all of the current modelers and profilers are good- I particularly like the Fractals and the Kemper, but I think the Fender TMP is on another level, especially after the most recent firmware updates, YMMV. The effects, including the reverb units are so good that I am starting to sell off my considerable collection of pedals and my beloved '63 tube reverb reissue.

Fender did get off to a rough start with some bugs and some of the amps didn't sound right, but they have fixed pretty much all of those. I got the FR12 cabinet that sounds great but has a slight hiss (fixed in later models). Fender recently announced that owners of the affected units can take them to an authorized service center and have it fixed for free.

I found that a number of the included Fender amps, especially the twin, put out great jazz tones. So does the Roland Jazz Chorus and the Vox amp models. What I am really waiting for, though, is a firmware update (they plan to be adding amp models on an ongoing basis) that will include a Tweed Deluxe like Rudy Gelder used in his studio.

[jorgemg1984]

I have owned just about every modeler and profiler out there and before I start, I want to point out that the Kemper is not a modeler, but a profiler. The difference is important because a profiler captures the sound of an amp. being a "snapshot" of the amp with specific settings can sound great, but if you start to tweak the parameters, even the tone controls, the profiler manipulates the "snapshot" and it can start to sound off if the changes are fairly significant especially adjusting gain settings. That is why profiles that are sold by third parties have multiple profiles to offer "snapshots" with different settings. On the other hand a modeler simulates the amps' or effects' circuitry, including the ability to change settings. Profilers can sound great if the profile is what you are looking for, but has limits to the tweakibility.

Let me also preface by saying that I have historically been a tube snob- even my high-end Hi-Fi system has all tube mono block amps, preamp and phono stage. I have played with modelers fo over 20 years but always had a selection of tube amps and heads.
Modelers/Profilers I have owned or still owned going back over 20 years:
Hardware:
Kemper
Helix
Axe FX II and III
Various Line 6 Pods and rack units
Eleven Rack

Software:
Tonex
AmpliTube
Guitar Rig

My favorite amp has almost always been the Fender Twin Reverb- I've had several silver and black face models. When I turned sixty I decided that I could no longer lug around the heavy beast and decided it was not practical to play at reasonable volumes in my home and get a good tone, and miking cabs for recording was not practical in my home studio for a number of reasons. I heard good things about the Fender Twin Reverb solid state ToneMaster amp so I decided to audition it. I was shocked at how it sounded and reacted to my playing like a real tube amp! The biggest difference with modelers for me was how they felt and how they reacted to different picking or fingerpicking dynamics. The Fender nailed it!

When Fender came out with the ToneMaster Pro I got one because it can do my beloved Twin, but also Deluxe Reverbs, Princetons, Tweed Bassman, etc. I think all of the current modelers and profilers are good- I particularly like the Fractals and the Kemper, but I think the Fender TMP is on another level, especially after the most recent firmware updates, YMMV. The effects, including the reverb units are so good that I am starting to sell off my considerable collection of pedals and my beloved '63 tube reverb reissue.

Fender did get off to a rough start with some bugs and some of the amps didn't sound right, but they have fixed pretty much all of those. I got the FR12 cabinet that sounds great but has a slight hiss (fixed in later models). Fender recently announced that owners of the affected units can take them to an authorized service center and have it fixed for free.

I found that a number of the included Fender amps, especially the twin, put out great jazz tones. So does the Roland Jazz Chorus and the Vox amp models. What I am really waiting for, though, is a firmware update (they plan to be adding amp models on an ongoing basis) that will include a Tweed Deluxe like Rudy Gelder used in his studio.

The last time I looked into the TMP, the tuner was fixed at 440hz. Is that still true? I was baffled by that, and it's a deal breaker for me.

[raylinds]

The last time I looked into the TMP, the tuner was fixed at 440hz. Is that still true? I was baffled by that, and it's a deal breaker for me.

As far as I know, but I use a Peterson strobe tuner and have never used the tuners built into modelers. But I also am not gigging.

[D'Aquisto Fan]

I just came back from vacation. I was loaned a Gibson ES 339 and a Boss modeling amp. The guitar was nice. The modeling amp, not so much. I'm a tube guy. The modeling amp sounded sterile, stiff and lifeless with absolutely no interactive give and take. A great amp is a responsive instrument in and of itself. I'm very glad to be home with my tube amps.

[Spook410]

.. I'm very glad to be home with my tube amps.

Given the weight, home is the only place where tube amps still make sense for me.

Hoping you give modelers a chance in terms of responsiveness. Trying one mediocre and obsolete modeling amp then giving up on the entire segment may keep you from saving your back one day.

[FourOnSix]

Given the weight, home is the only place where tube amps still make sense for me.

Hoping you give modelers a chance in terms of responsiveness. Trying one mediocre and obsolete modeling amp then giving up on the entire segment may keep you from saving your back one day.

I just bought a Boss IR-2 modeling pedal. I regularly play farmers markets and other outdoor gigs where I need to rely on battery power. I play a tele through a Fishman Loudbox Mini, an acoustic amp. Talk about sounding sterile! So I'm hoping the IR-2 will give me at least a little bit of the tube amp tone and feel. I'll be testing it out on the job this weekend, but so far at home the results are encouraging.

Nothing beats playing through my Carr Skylark, but I ain't lugging that thing around!

[mr quick]

Given the weight, home is the only place where tube amps still make sense for me.

Hoping you give modelers a chance in terms of responsiveness. Trying one mediocre and obsolete modeling amp then giving up on the entire segment may keep you from saving your back one day.

I find this to be a particularly pertinent observation. My dad started gigging in 1961. He's still gigging a lot, but he can barely carry anything. His back is completely busted and it's a long, laborious affair for him to even lug the instruments from the door to the car. I think that most men suffer from a bad case of "it'll be fine", but the reality is, it probably won't.

My knees were always fine, until I found out last winter that they're not, and they'll only get worse for the rest of my life. My doctor told me some 6 years ago that I should start doing such-and-such to save my knees and I thought "it'll be fine", but it wasn't.

I'll stick with modellers and software, but I acknowledge that a good tube amplifier is the shortest route home. In a controlled environment, it's plug and play. The modeller is too, but you have to work for a minute to get to it. I also respect the tactile feeling of analog technology.

Even though I have the most cutting-edge quartz-controlled high-precision wristwatch, I still went out and bought two mechanical ones this winter. Then again, when precision counts and I'm travelling between timezones for work, things become clear again. I'm sure that a Fiat X1/9 is a marvellous machine on a hot, sunny day... But most days it's windy, gray, wet, or even icy. My Corolla feels a bit more sterile. It doesn't roar, it sounds more like the kettle I use for making coffee. The interior is grey. It accelerates slowly. But then, nobly, it always starts and always gets me where I have to go.

Before I stumble over my own analogues here, what I'm saying is that tube amplifiers are indeed the ideal toward which we strive, but their time as the workhorse is over. They're too heavy and too moody. I've never ever started a gig with a tube amplifier thinking that my sound was right, but with the modeller, I just plug in and make sure I have the right level in the monitor. With my new HSH setup on my ES, and the smaller modeller unit, I have a single bag which can fit a million sounds. It's incredible. It's not romantic, though. But it works every time.

[JazzIsGood]

As this new technology starts catching on, I find myself more and more drawn to the amps of the past. I've been playing a Deluxe reverb from 1966, and now I'm starting to want a tweed 5c3 Deluxe. Not sure why.

I wouldn't rule out a modeler completely. Maybe someday a friend will show me some deluxe or 5c3 patches and it will become interesting.

I like to play guitar to get away from computers and technology. It's a great way to clear the brain of digital information overload.

[Bop Head]

Has anybody tried the M-audio Blackbox -- based on the Roger Linn (of LinnDrum fame) "AdrenaLinn"?

It is ca. 20 years old and there is a digital USB out giving you 24 bit @ 44.1 KHz.

I used it for a while and found it quite good.

EDIT: The AdrenaLinn III was obviously only discontinued in 2022 according to RL's website.

About - Museum

[nbevan3]

The technology seems to be moving so quickly in this area that you really need to add dates for when you used modellers.
I don't use the technology on stage any more as I find the 'setting' too complicated and I like the idea of having a 'hard reset' by going direct into the amp if (when) things go wrong.
When recording, i use modelling all the time - but they are plugins for my DAW.

[Bop Head]

The technology seems to be moving so quickly in this area that you really need to add dates for when you used modellers.
I don't use the technology on stage any more as I find the 'setting' too complicated and I like the idea of having a 'hard reset' by going direct into the amp if (when) things go wrong.
When recording, i use modelling all the time - but they are plugins for my DAW.

The first time I heard of Line 6 was during an internship in a recording studio. They had the Line 6 Amp Farm DSP-card for Protools which was groundbreaking technology back then -- must have been 1997 or 1998.

Live I prefer analogue as well -- an amp or at least my Palmer Pocket Amp SansAmp clone.

[GuyBoden]

I had the Pod and Zoom when they first became available. Was that 20-30 ago years ago?

For the last 5-8 years, I've gradually moved from dedicated modellers to using a laptop for effects and modelling. I find that a laptop is much more flexible and can be hooked to a power amp via a good audio interface.

[gitman]

For me modelers are the perfect solution for stage work or for recording at home - it's never been easier and cheaper to get a decent sound LOUD and without hiss, interference and other noises.
When I'm fussing with my guitars at home I very much enjoy the ol' analog method of guitar-chord-amp, I don't get ear fatigue and the direct signal chain is brutally honest in showing even the smallest picking "mistake" or sloppy fingering. Keeps me humble ....

[Bop Head]

I had the Pod and Zoom when they first became available. Was that 20-30 ago years ago?

For the last 5-8 years, I've gradually moved from dedicated modellers to using a laptop for effects and modelling. I find that a laptop is much more flexible and can be hooked to a power amp via a good audio interface.

This Zoom LOL?

| ZOOM

(Allegedly Brian May -- Queen -- and Richie Sambora -- Bon Jovi -- used it for studio work.)

[Spook410]

There are analog amp modelers. Joyo American which models a blackface preamp and DSM Humboldt Simplifier come to mind. I haven't tried the DSM which has a lot of capabilities. However, I use the simple and inexpensive Joyo daily preferring it even to the expensive stuff.

[supersoul]

There are analog amp modelers. Joyo American which models a blackface preamp and DSM Humboldt Simplifier come to mind. I haven't tried the DSM which has a lot of capabilities. However, I use the simple and inexpensive Joyo daily preferring it even to the expensive stuff.

I'm also a fan of the SansAmp style. I have a Palmer PocketAmp (mentioned above), a Joyo American, and a Trademark 30 amp, which is basically a SansAmp with midrange, reverb with 30watts/10" speaker and a DI XLR out. They all feel alive like a nice tube amp. For recording they sound great.
I've tried digital modelling and IR preamps but I prefer the SansAmp world.

[Spook410]

I'm also a fan of the SansAmp style. I have a Palmer PocketAmp (mentioned above), a Joyo American, and a Trademark 30 amp, which is basically a SansAmp with midrange, reverb with 30watts/10" speaker and a DI XLR out. They all feel alive like a nice tube amp. For recording they sound great.
I've tried digital modelling and IR preamps but I prefer the SansAmp world.

Since I'm using a full up FRFR but still want warm guitar tones, I still have to run a speaker IR. I found that a higher quality speaker IR made a big difference in the Strymon Iridium I used for quite awhile. But now I'm using the Joyo American with a Joyo Cab Box (~$150) which provides lots of good IR's, excellent EQ, power amp models, and useful utilities. Not that Joyo makes great stuff. Not in terms of QC anyway. But these two pedals together are what I'm liking and I find it hard to sound better even with a good combo amp. That and I can match up different cabinet choices with different guitars and situations. Which you would think wouldn't matter but actually sort of does. Sort of like different gauge strings. Fun stuff.

[mr quick]

I have another thought to add to this -- Why did we collectively decide that they got it "right" in a certain year and there's no need to innovate further? Why is the Tele "perfect"? I can't imagine how controversial it must have been at the time. Where's that same innovation in say, carbon fiber? Why is something as dated as a tube amp "perfect"?

It's just something I've been thinking about recently. I ride a modern carbon race bike, but when I was in Nuremberg this summer, I held a Colnago Master in my hands and nearly cried. I think that's the same romance we have in the guitar world. I've never held a Super 400 but I bet it's the same.
However, the cold hard facts are that that masterpiece of steel is STILL completely inferior in terms of doing what it's supposed to. It's not even more comfortable.
But if I didn't have any information or my GPS & cycling fitness journal to refer to, I might still have chosen the steel bike, just because it makes me weep.

Having said that, how come we aren't all playing fanned-fret headless guitars? I personally haven't looked into them nor had the chance to try many, I think this is more of a philosophical question. I cannot accept that we cannot improve on a recipe that's 70 years old.

Is the wooden guitar and the tube amplifier head with plywood cabinet really the greatest sound we can create, or are we stubborn romantics?

I know this borders on off-topic but I think it applies to amplifiers and modellers too. Who knows, maybe we'll laugh in a decade about how bad the Axe FX was.

[pingu]

sometimes you can’t improve a design very much

Stradivarius violin family

Selmer mkVI saxophones

D’angelico guitars

sometimes you realise the weak link
is the player …. not the instrument

[nbevan3]

I suspect that most of us are ...

stubborn romantics

I think that I may be!

[raylinds]

I like the philosophical direction that this thread has taken. Of course, what piece of gear is perfect and what can be improved is quite subjective. Sometimes I think Wes had the right attitude- the equipment is just a tool to get the job done. I think the gear is a little more important when we are first starting out- a cheap guitar with buzzing frets and high action is frustrating and hard to play and not conducive to motivating someone just starting out. The same thing with a bad sounding amp- a poor tone does not sound like the songs we hear on record or radio and can also be frustrating. But look at the stories of players that started out on crap guitars or wire attached to wood and later went on to become masters. Their passion and vision could not be dampened by inferior tools- the sound that they were looking for remained in their heads and they had no choice but to press on.

Once a player reaches the level of having their own style, the equipment becomes almost insignificant. Wes is going to sound like Wes on a Telecaster or a L-5. Yet many continue to explore new and different equipment throughout their career, but I suspect it is less of an obsession and more of a perk.

We guitarists are particularly obsessed by equipment. A large part of that is a never-ending quest for the perfect tone. Even after we have gotten to the point when we are pretty satisfied with our tone, the search continues. It's part of the passion. I have a theory of another reason, at least for me, for the obsession with gear. At times when I am unable to practice or study, or just need to take a break, hopping on the internet or visiting the local music store is another way to fuel the passion. Can't practice to work towards the perfect tone? Shop for it! That's also a good part of the reason I spend so much time on this forum.

Can modern technology improve on older tech? I think it can and, in many ways it has, BUT for many things it is an evolution of an existing technology rather than a revolution of a totally new paradigm. The transistor performs the same function as a vacuum tube, but the idea was to improve upon reliability and consistency. But it is not an exact duplicate, and a transistor circuit has many different characteristics to a tube circuit and a different sound. Then somebody comes along and figures out a way to make the transistor circuit almost identical to the tube circuit. But, yeah, less romantic.

I am still surprised that I have embraced modeling as I have been a tube snob for years (my Hi-Fi is all tubes), but I love my Fender ToneMaster Pro. About 15 years ago I had a Polytone Mini Brute II and really liked it, but I did not have a tube amp at the time, so never did an A/B comparison. Recently I was able to play one and do a side-by-side comparison against my TMP modeling a '65 Twin Reverb and was shocked at how much better the Fender sounded to me! I could really hear the sound of tubes (that I have never been able to appropriately describe), and it really made a difference to me. So I guess, for me, it doesn't have to HAVE tubes, but it needs to SOUND like tubes.

As far as guitars, Line 6 used to make the Variax, which was basically a guitar modeler that was supposed to be able to sound like a banjo and other stringed instruments as well as many different types of electric and acoustic guitars with pretty much any type of pickup. I really, really wanted to like it- imagine being able to get Van Halen tones, and then sound like Wes Montgomery with the flick of a switch! Unfortunately, the reality didn't live up to the hype and it has been discontinued. In all honesty some of the models sounded decent, but not enough. Besides, what would my excuse be for having 20 guitars?

Anyway, it is funny that for many of us new and better means sounding more like old technology. Is there some romance involved? I think so, but I don't think it is just that.

[Spook410]

sometimes you can’t improve a design very much

Stradivarius violin family

Selmer mkVI saxophones

D’angelico guitars

sometimes you realise the weak link
is the player …. not the instrument

Don't think it's an apples to apples improvement. More different angles and vectors. I have a 1971 French market Selmer MkVI. It's a wonderful instrument and honestly should belong to a better player. Still, at my modest coffee shop jazz gig (guitar mostly) I rarely bring a nice horn. Mostly just a Roland Aerophone (plastic-y wind instrument synth) for muted trumpet on Miles tunes and the cello patch for a bit of Bach's Cello Suite No. 1

And yea.. I'm the weak link vs my gear but that's OK. New things are good and music technology is an interesting topic.

[Bluedawg]

I have owned just about every modeler and profiler out there and before I start, I want to point out that the Kemper is not a modeler, but a profiler. The difference is important because a profiler captures the sound of an amp. being a "snapshot" of the amp with specific settings can sound great, but if you start to tweak the parameters, even the tone controls, the profiler manipulates the "snapshot" and it can start to sound off if the changes are fairly significant especially adjusting gain settings. That is why profiles that are sold by third parties have multiple profiles to offer "snapshots" with different settings. On the other hand a modeler simulates the amps' or effects' circuitry, including the ability to change settings. Profilers can sound great if the profile is what you are looking for, but has limits to the tweakibility.

Let me also preface by saying that I have historically been a tube snob- even my high-end Hi-Fi system has all tube mono block amps, preamp and phono stage. I have played with modelers fo over 20 years but always had a selection of tube amps and heads.
Modelers/Profilers I have owned or still owned going back over 20 years:
Hardware:
Kemper
Helix
Axe FX II and III
Various Line 6 Pods and rack units
Eleven Rack

Software:
Tonex
AmpliTube
Guitar Rig

My favorite amp has almost always been the Fender Twin Reverb- I've had several silver and black face models. When I turned sixty I decided that I could no longer lug around the heavy beast and decided it was not practical to play at reasonable volumes in my home and get a good tone, and miking cabs for recording was not practical in my home studio for a number of reasons. I heard good things about the Fender Twin Reverb solid state ToneMaster amp so I decided to audition it. I was shocked at how it sounded and reacted to my playing like a real tube amp! The biggest difference with modelers for me was how they felt and how they reacted to different picking or fingerpicking dynamics. The Fender nailed it!

When Fender came out with the ToneMaster Pro I got one because it can do my beloved Twin, but also Deluxe Reverbs, Princetons, Tweed Bassman, etc. I think all of the current modelers and profilers are good- I particularly like the Fractals and the Kemper, but I think the Fender TMP is on another level, especially after the most recent firmware updates, YMMV. The effects, including the reverb units are so good that I am starting to sell off my considerable collection of pedals and my beloved '63 tube reverb reissue.

Fender did get off to a rough start with some bugs and some of the amps didn't sound right, but they have fixed pretty much all of those. I got the FR12 cabinet that sounds great but has a slight hiss (fixed in later models). Fender recently announced that owners of the affected units can take them to an authorized service center and have it fixed for free.

I found that a number of the included Fender amps, especially the twin, put out great jazz tones. So does the Roland Jazz Chorus and the Vox amp models. What I am really waiting for, though, is a firmware update (they plan to be adding amp models on an ongoing basis) that will include a Tweed Deluxe like Rudy Gelder used in his studio.

Now that the Fender TMP has been out for a while it is starting get my interest. I'm much more interested in clean tones and edge of breakup tones than I am in heavy distortion and metal tones.


Here's a great review of it:

Hopefully, they'll add bass amps soon.

[m_d]

Now that the Fender TMP has been out for a while it is starting get my interest. I'm much more interested in clean tones and edge of breakup tones than I am in heavy distortion and metal tones.


Here's a great review of it:

Hopefully, they'll add bass amps soon.

Impressive sounding unit. Tim's channel is really really good.