Dual blade humbucker for jazz? Vintage vibe CC humbucker

[Wrogsprit]

New custom dual blade humbucking pickup for electric guitar by Pete Biltoft | eBay

I think it looks quite nice but there's so little information about it. I wasn't sure if it was suitable as a neck pickup for playing jazz guitar so I messaged them about it. They replied back saying it would provide a warm smooth tone suitable for jazz. It seems like so many people recommend PAFs or some kind of low output humbucker. Do you think these would sound good for jazz guitar?

[gitman]

Bill Lawrence and later Joe Barden (>Steve Klein guitars, were among the first prominent pickup winders who adopted the dual-blade design (Larry DiMarzio followed shortly after > check out Lorne Lofsky playing his Ibanez Strat-copy with Blade humbuckers !) ) and you can find several clips in which the players get a perfectly warm, clear and balanced CLEAN sound on their guitars fitted with that type of pickup. Depending on string choice, gauge, guitar-design, choice of woods for neck and body, bridge design etc. the outcome will vary of course but really it's only nuances in the end. Your fingers/pick will have to do the rest !
John Abercrombie, Jody Fisher, Tim Miller and Mick Goodrick come to mind when I think of players who have used these types of pickups ....

[jzucker]

not sure what the point of the charlie christian look-alike is. The magnets and design he's offering is about as far away from a CC pickup as you can get. I wouldn't call it a CC pickup at all. It's just a dual blade humbucker with interchangeable magnets.

[Cunamara]

Well, structurally it is a long way away from the original CC pickup. But if you listen to Fred Archtop's comparison videos, the tone is in the ballpark and, with your eyes closed, probably not outside the variance between different examples of the real thing. Lollar and Biltoft have done their homework on approximating the tone of the CC without having to have giant cobalt steel magnets (which are prone to degaussing).

I have one of Pete's floating single coil HCC pickups on my archtop; it sounds great for jazz. I don't particularly care whether it sounds exactly like the original Gibson version, I just like a big fat single coil tone. The HCC sounds smoother than a P90. I haven't heard the dual blade humbucking version, but since side-by-side humbuckers have some phase cancellation it will sound different.

I have a couple of Bill Lawrence L90 pickups in one of my guitars; they sound excellent. They are clearer than a PAF yet retain warmth and fatness. PAF pickups always sound slightly nasal to me, probably due to the phase cancellation, and these don't seem to have that so much. I've never had a PAF style pickup in a guitar that I liked well enough to keep (and yet other people sound excellent with them).

[gitman]

Some random thoughts on the subject :

The notoriety of the famed PAF pickup stems mostly from it's predominant use in solidbody guitars from the late 50's/early 60's (way more solids were equipped with these pups than thinlines or archtops) - in the hands of players like Clapton, Green, Bloomfield, Page, Allman etc. that sound became the benchmark for THE overdriven Rock/Blues guitar tone that everybody chased and does so to this day...
for the Jazz crowd it's a little different IMHO : things started earlier, before the invention of the PAF pickup so the predominant sounds in the 30's, 40's and 50's were made with archtops fitted with single coil pups. Guitarists who came up during the late 50's/early 60's had the choice : some switched (Wes, Kenny ,...) while others adopted the newer units/guitars (almost) from the beginning (Benson, Martino, Pass) , many stuck to their trusted DeArmonds, P90's and CC models.
I personally never really got this fixation on the PAF mojo but I welcomed the rise of the replacement-pickup winders in the 70's (Duncan, DiMarzio, etc) who opened up the gates to so many alternatives and paved the way to the current unlimited choice in pickups for the individual...

I'd never replace the original PAF's in my '62 Super-400 because one shouldn't change a winning team (and have the wrath of the preservationists come down on me ....) but that combo is in no way the be-all/end-all DEFINITIVE benchmark for the ultimate Jazz Guitar Tone - I get an absolutely satisfying tone from my Trenier (KA single coil floater), my Victor Baker (Häussel Jazz humbucker set in) and my Heritage Super Eagle (Seth Lover/KA PAF'S) - all of them new guitars and new pickups.

[jads57]

I've had one in my Elferink Tonemaster archtop for a couple of years now. Wonderful pickup! It replace my Kent Armstrong 12 pole piece floater, which is also a very nice pickup!
I had Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe Pickups make one so it would fit the same space as the K.A. that came with my guitar originally.
I also had one of Peter Biltoft CC Rider single coils in a Tele. I really liked it in the neck position and with a ceramic magnet.

[P.J.]

Bill Lawrence and later Joe Barden (>Steve Klein guitars, were among the first prominent pickup winders who adopted the dual-blade design (Larry DiMarzio followed shortly after > check out Lorne Lofsky playing his Ibanez Strat-copy with Blade humbuckers !) ) and you can find several clips in which the players get a perfectly warm, clear and balanced CLEAN sound on their guitars fitted with that type of pickup. Depending on string choice, gauge, guitar-design, choice of woods for neck and body, bridge design etc. the outcome will vary of course but really it's only nuances in the end. Your fingers/pick will have to do the rest !
John Abercrombie, Jody Fisher, Tim Miller and Mick Goodrick come to mind when I think of players who have used these types of pickups ....

I have 3 had Bardens on my Tele for over 20 years. They are awesome for pretty much any style of music.

[mateo2006]

Well, structurally it is a long way away from the original CC pickup. But if you listen to Fred Archtop's comparison videos, the tone is in the ballpark and, with your eyes closed, probably not outside the variance between different examples of the real thing. Lollar and Biltoft have done their homework on approximating the tone of the CC without having to have giant cobalt steel magnets (which are prone to degaussing).

People often talk about the form of the pickup being different and of course that it true. But I put a lollar in the neck of tele and it made me really go crazy for these pickups. There is one company in Britain making a closer CC pickup in terms of materials, but even Daniel Slaman, who made Pat Metheny's ES-150 style guitar, claims that the difference in sound between the Lollars and the British CC pickups is negligible.

Whether true or not. (Seems true from the clips) I love those Lollar pickups.

This was the result, I had Lollar do three output balanced CC pickups. And that is main guitar for playing regardless of genre now. (I don't play anything really heavy but they sound great with rock gain levels if you EQ the sound properly.)



I found this article informative:

https://gypsyjazzuk.wordpress.com/g...timer-pickup/charlie-christian/charlies-gear/

It states:

“ There were 3 different varieties of Charlie Christian pickup produced by Gibson, and all 3 are distinguished by the polepiece:

Retro Source

1. The 1st of these was produced from 1936 until mid-1938 and had a plain blade polepiece. The coil was wound to about 2.4 k? resistance using AWG 38 enamelled wire.
2. The 2nd type was introduced on ES-150s built from mid-1938 onward, and featured a polepiece that had a notch cut out below the 2nd (B) string. This modification was made to lower the volume of the B string, which sounded significantly louder than the other strings. At this time the coil was wound with a finer wire (AWG 42) resulting in more turns and an approximately 5.2 k? resistance, which gave the pickup a higher output.
3. The 3rd pickup was available on the Gibson ES-250, which was available beginning in 1939. The blade on this pickup had 5 notches, each located between the strings. This pickup also had a more compact internal design. It featured a cobalt steel slug that was small enough to sit directly under the pickup.

The sound this pickup produced is clear – thanks to the narrow string-sensing blade – and powerful because of the relatively high resistance of the coil. Uneven magnetic flux within the steel magnets could cause some distortion in the signal. Electromagnetic hum was also a big problem with these pickups because of their large surface area and utter lack of shielding.”

According to this article, the 38 gauge wire was only used until mid-1938 when they switched over to 42 gauge wire. This would indicate that Biltoft’s and Lollar’s are equally correct takes on Charlie Christian era CC pickups in terms of wire (and equally different from the original design in terms of deciding to look for alternatives to cumbersome cobalt magnets).

Finding a bridge output pickup that matched great to my own tastes was harder ... and I went through a ton of them.

Lollar's bridge pickup didn't seem much like a mate specifically made for CC pickup in anything but output. It is 40 gauge wire with ceramic magnets. It is pretty good match volume wise but it has a much different character and is much brighter. I felt like I was putting on a totally different hat when I switched to that pickup.

I decided to go with something else. ...which doesn't mean it isn't awesome! If was doing an Esquire, it might be my number one choice. I notice that Tim Lerch's number one guitar is not the one with the Lollar blade steel pickup but the rather the regular Lollar tele bridge which he told me often applies a boost to in order to even out the perceived volume difference.

5 pickups later, I went to Peter Biltoft and told him I wanted something with a rail magnet with p90 level output in a telecaster bridge format so that I could still go traditional with telecaster hardware. He was the only pickup maker who listened to what I said and delivered.

This is the result looks like this:

Here shown in my guitar.


The strat with three Lollar neck pickups and hum cancelling in-between positions is still my favourite ... but I already ruined one tele routing out the bridge to put a lollar neck pickup in that position ...and I also already have that sound in my strat.

This bridge balances perfectly volume-wise and is more 'cutting' than the Lollar neck in the same position. But if you don't like the sound, unlike other pickups, it you can just slide out the magnet and put something else in. I have an Alnico V in there presently.

Peter also offered to use whatever materials I wanted for the pickups including 38 gauge wire.

Personally, I received really superior service from Peter Biltoft and I think he will do practically anything for you if you ask - but he will also give you advice about what he thinks will sound better for your goals.

BTW - Very surprisingly, the cheapest pickup which wasn't a bad match character/volume wise for Lollar neck was a Duncan Quarter Pound for Tele.

[frankhond]

Recently I was researching the Benedetto B6, an archetypal jazz pickup. Came across a thread in another forum where someone had dremeled off the resin and the insides weee exposed. Looked like a double blade design.

Seth Lover said in an interview that the screws in the PAF he designed weren’t necessary, the Gibson marketing department made him do it for looks.

So I guess blade is fine for jazz... but I’m wondering what’s special about that design.

[mateo2006]

Some manufactures are making "staples" and option again.

Described here as looking for something with a little bit more clarity and definition than a P-90.

It seems to me that that is exactly the territory that the CC pickups inhabit it my head.

The thing I like about the Lollar CC is the clear and present bass and what seems more resistance to breakup at lower level gain levels than other higher output pickups. Also the gain tends more toward the smooth sustain than the 'toothy' breakup than say my alnico III stratocaster pickups which respond greater to the tone dial but sound gritty with gain applied.

Of course, it also depends on which incarnation of the CC pickup you are talking about. It seems the later version of the original CC pickups were made with more materials in common with a p-90.

Peter Biltoft's Easy Ryder pickups are more in line with the later CC pickup approach.

I asked a local guitarist why he preferred preferred Rio Grande's take on the CC to his Lollar pickup ( Rio Grande Pickups:CC Neck ) He said, "They are warmer."

I don't know much about how the Rio Grande's pickups are constructed but I assume they are a steel rail design with 42 gauge wire (like a p90) allowing for more wraps around the bobbin and resulting in hotter signal.

Lollar has told me that they already use the maximum number of windings you can put on a bobbin with 38 gauge wire and an alnico V magnet. They use 40 gauge wire on their blade steel pickup.

If we look at the OP it seems like two easy ryder pickups placed side by side and wired together to be hum cancelling. This has been been done with strat pickups before. Did Robbie Robertson inspire that? I am not sure if his were even humcancelling. The advantage would be true single coil sound when splitting which very few companies have done very successfully up to now.

I imagine two CC wired up in series side-by-side would be muddy for my tastes. I did it with two Lollars in neck and bridge position and it was a sound I would never use with my setup but some people like it.

[Lobomov]

Some manufactures are making "staples" and option again.

They are no longer in the SD catalogue it seems ... But DAMN .. that demo sounds absolutely stellar. Might be the player tho, but damn .. I like that .. That is some gourmet stuff

[Cunamara]

There was a vintage Gibson with original staple pickups on my local Craigslist a number of years ago, I can't remember which model it was but it was an archtop. The ad described the pickups as "velvet hammers."