Gibson ES-165 Herb Ellis question

[Dutchbopper]

What would be the difference between a 90s and one from let's say early 2000s (not the one with the floater). Did they change anything over the years? Maybe the neck profile?

TIA

DB

[Gitterbug]

I haven't had one from either period, but my overall impression from occasional tryouts is that the build quality, at least finish, is inferior to a 175. Of those I have more experience; lots of QC issues in 2004-2005.

[Stringswinger]

What would be the difference between a 90s and one from let's say early 2000s (not the one with the floater). Did they change anything over the years? Maybe the neck profile?

TIA

DB

I have played both and the neck profile is slimmer in the mid 90's. Everything else seemed the same.

[PMB]

I've never read of any alterations before the change to a floater in 2004. Mine's a '93 and is excellent. There have been complaints about the trapeze tailpiece hinge but I've had no issues. Perhaps I'm easier to please than most as it's hard enough to find any lefty archtops let alone a decent Gibson!

[Max405]

I have a floater and I had a non floater, probably 6 years apart.
The neck on my Floater is FULL, (let’s put it that way..). I love the neck. But the problem is the heel. It is like “obstacle” big. I think the headstock is a tiny bit larger on my 165 than on prior years. And the headstock has inlays. The fit, finish and quality on my guitar is second to none. It is 16 years old and it is still very much perfect.
JD

[icr]

I've never read of any alterations before the change to a floater in 2004. Mine's a '93 and is excellent. There have been complaints about the trapeze tailpiece hinge but I've had no issues. Perhaps I'm easier to please than most as it's hard enough to find any lefty archtops let alone a decent Gibson!

I love the red ES-165. I so wanted a red one to go with my other red Gibsons. Thing is, a few years ago prices were high so, I was able to get a red/gold ES-175 (which apparently no one wants in a ES-175 color combo) for just a few hundred more, so I went that route.

[Dutchbopper]

I have a floater and I had a non floater, probably 6 years apart.
The neck on my Floater is FULL, (let’s put it that way..). I love the neck. But the problem is the heel. It is like “obstacle” big. I think the headstock is a tiny bit larger on my 165 than on prior years. And the headstock has inlays. The fit, finish and quality on my guitar is second to none. It is 16 years old and it is still very much perfect.
JD

Why did you sell the first one?

DB

[Dutchbopper]

I've never read of any alterations before the change to a floater in 2004. Mine's a '93 and is excellent. There have been complaints about the trapeze tailpiece hinge but I've had no issues. Perhaps I'm easier to please than most as it's hard enough to find any lefty archtops let alone a decent Gibson!

Looking sharp PMB!

DB

[Dutchbopper]

I have played both and the neck profile is slimmer in the mid 90's. Everything else seemed the same.

Did you like them?

DB

[Dutchbopper]

I haven't had one from either period, but my overall impression from occasional tryouts is that the build quality, at least finish, is inferior to a 175. Of those I have more experience; lots of QC issues in 2004-2005.

OK thanks for the reply. So you feel the Ellis is inferior to a normal ES 175? That's the first time I hear that. I did read something about breaking tailpieces ...

DB

[Max405]

Why did you sell the first one?
DB

I honestly don’t remember. It was most likely to buy something else. I seem to remember I wanted a Floater 165 to begin with. But it was excellent. It had the smaller headstock and the gold silk screened logo.

[Stringswinger]

Did you like them?

DB

I liked the mid 90's 165 quite a bit (it belonged to a student of mine). It could have been all the jazz guitar that I would ever need. The early 2000's model had a neck that is fatter than I like and it had a very big heel. I would not want one of those, but guys who like a fuller neck might like it.

[jads57]

Give me a FAT NECK every time!

[lammie200]

I have a ‘91 which I think may be the first year of production. Excellent quality IMHO. No problems with the tailpiece. I would put the neck at a medium depth. The 490R pickup sometimes doesn’t get any love but I like it. Seems right for the guitar. Great instrument and used to be undervalued until fairly recently from what I see.

[floatingpickup]

I had a 2001 Herb Ellis. The label on mine said it was an ES-175, but it was clearly a standard ES-165 with a single built-in pickup and Herb’s signature on the headstock. It was a great guitar. I played it exclusively on all my gigs for a few years and it never disappointed me. It had a fairly substantial neck, quite similar to my 1959 ES-175. I loved the flamey top and the gold-plated hardware. The original 490R pickup sounded great to me. I removed the tune-o-matic saddle and put on a rosewood one, but that was the only change I made. I can’t speak to differences over the years, but I was definitely pleased with the one I owned and I think they are really great guitars for the money.
Keith

[Dutchbopper]

I had a 2001 Herb Ellis. The label on mine said it was an ES-175, but it was clearly a standard ES-165 with a single built-in pickup and Herb’s signature on the headstock. It was a great guitar. I played it exclusively on all my gigs for a few years and it never disappointed me. It had a fairly substantial neck, quite similar to my 1959 ES-175. I loved the flamey top and the gold-plated hardware. The original 490R pickup sounded great to me. I removed the tune-o-matic saddle and put on a rosewood one, but that was the only change I made. I can’t speak to differences over the years, but I was definitely pleased with the one I owned and I think they are really great guitars for the money.
Keith

Yeah, it seems to me a perfect gigging guitar. No frills, few knobs. I already have a 175 by the way. Does it sound the same like one?

DB

[Max405]

DB, I know you are not looking for a Floater 165. But I have to say this..
For some reason, With Ti Jazz Swing 12's, my Floater 165 is an OUTSTANDING acoustic instrument. Its not really loud. Its just smooth. Perfectly well balanced. Deep but not overwhelmingly so.
If I only had one guitar, that is the one it would be. For me anyway.
From memory, my 165 had a GREAT sound. Very tight and solidly built. Better acoustically then the Modern 175s are. More like the 1953 175d that I grew up on. Electrically, very warm. More "airy" than the 175s. Same responsiveness. An absolute keeper of a guitar for sure.
JD
Another thing..
Dont give up the floater 165. Play one. The BJB is a very powerful and well balanced pickup. And the pickup placement is up against the base of the neck. Swap out the pickguard with a nice L5 Guard. Put a schatten under it, with tone and volume controls. Back the tone down to about 8 and You have transformed the Guitar into one of the best guitars out there. Trust me man. You'd LOVE it.

[lawson-stone]

Why did you sell the first one?

DB

I bought Joe's 90's era ES165 and my recollection is he knew I had some cash for a special purchase of an archtop and offered this to me. The fit, finish, set-up, frets, everthing about this guitar is perfect. I love playing it. I don't use it on clips posted here much because I keep it at home and I usually do my clips at my office/lab area where I have a media corner for doing other things like lecture presentations. But it's a sweet guitar, solid as a tank, no drama, no nonsense. If I had to keep only one archtop, this is the one I'd keep.

[lawson-stone]

Yeah, it seems to me a perfect gigging guitar. No frills, few knobs. I already have a 175 by the way. Does it sound the same like one?

DB

Mine does not sound like any ES175 I've owned. The potted 490R pickup has a tighter low end and just a little bit of growl in the middle, and a more chunky/thunky high end. The 90's 165 are built heavy like the late era 175's. When I pick up this guitar, it just feels solid. I find it inspires a lot of confidence in my when I play it.

I wish it had inlays, not silk-screening. That's my only very mild, trivial complaint, but once I start playing it all goes away.

BTW if you listen to Joe Pass' late career custom single-pickup ES175, I often think the 165 sounds like that.

[vinnyv1k]

2003 was the last year of the built in pu. They also did away with the HE silk screen headstock that year and went with a 175 headstock with a HE trussrod cover. 2004 they went with the BJB.
I am a 1pu guy so in 2010 I had Gibson make me this.

[Dutchbopper]

2003 was the last year of the built in pu. They also did away with the HE silk screen headstock that year and went with a 175 headstock with a HE trussrod cover. 2004 they went with the BJB.
I am a 1pu guy so in 2010 I had Gibson make me this.

Very nice guitar Vinny.

DB

[Dutchbopper]

Mine does not sound like any ES175 I've owned. The potted 490R pickup has a tighter low end and just a little bit of growl in the middle, and a more chunky/thunky high end. The 90's 165 are built heavy like the late era 175's. When I pick up this guitar, it just feels solid. I find it inspires a lot of confidence in my when I play it.

I wish it had inlays, not silk-screening. That's my only very mild, trivial complaint, but once I start playing it all goes away.

BTW if you listen to Joe Pass' late career custom single-pickup ES175, I often think the 165 sounds like that.

Very helpful Lawson. By now it won't be a secret that I am thinking of getting a used one myself.

DB

[Dutchbopper]

DB, I know you are not looking for a Floater 165. But I have to say this..
For some reason, With Ti Jazz Swing 12's, my Floater 165 is an OUTSTANDING acoustic instrument. Its not really loud. Its just smooth. Perfectly well balanced. Deep but not overwhelmingly so.
If I only had one guitar, that is the one it would be. For me anyway.
From memory, my 165 had a GREAT sound. Very tight and solidly built. Better acoustically then the Modern 175s are. More like the 1953 175d that I grew up on. Electrically, very warm. More "airy" than the 175s. Same responsiveness. An absolute keeper of a guitar for sure.
JD
Another thing..
Dont give up the floater 165. Play one. The BJB is a very powerful and well balanced pickup. And the pickup placement is up against the base of the neck. Swap out the pickguard with a nice L5 Guard. Put a schatten under it, with tone and volume controls. Back the tone down to about 8 and You have transformed the Guitar into one of the best guitars out there. Trust me man. You'd LOVE it.

Thanks Joe. I find all these user experiences very helpful.

DB

[lammie200]

...
Another thing..
Dont give up the floater 165. Play one. The BJB is a very powerful and well balanced pickup...Trust me man. You'd LOVE it.

Totally agree with Joe here. I saw the writing on the wall and picked up both models of the HE before the pricing valuation caught up to the rest of the used Gibsons. I am really glad that I did and am very happy with both. As Lawson says these are inspiring guitars. They just play well and they give it all back to you with the way they sound. Good luck to the OP in finding one. I am sure there will be something out there.

[Dutchbopper]

Totally agree with Joe here. I saw the writing on the wall and picked up both models of the HE before the pricing valuation caught up to the rest of the used Gibsons. I am really glad that I did and am very happy with both. As Lawson says these are inspiring guitars. They just play well and they give it all back to you with the way they sound. Good luck to the OP in finding one. I am sure there will be something out there.

There are a few for sale yes but it remains a bit unclear what the best years are. I would like one with a not too chubby neck. SS suggested mid 90s, so not the earliest ones.

DB