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Some of us have been talking about our favourite tones over on another thread and it got me thinking about one of my Holy Grail guitars the Gibson Johnny Smith.
At the moment I'm very happy with my new Collings Eastside Deluxe and have not the intention or the money to go chasing another Gibson Archtop.
But I was thinking that perhaps I could look around for an Ibanez Lawsuit one. They seem to be reasonably priced.
I've only ever read good things about them until the following review I found on Harmony Central which has really got me worried.
I've seen them with ebony boards and rosewood boards, with book matched maple backs and non matched backs and of course with different headstocks.........they would be the non lawsuit ones I guess.
Anyway I was wondering if anyone had one or used to own one and can give me an opinion.
Are they really "built like a tank" and not a copy at all?
Here is the article......what do you think?
Ibanez 2461
by benson8081
Newbie
·06-22-2011 01:20 PM
Overall Rating:Nice good quality budget guitar based on the Johnny smith. To call it a copy would be mis leading, it's 'based on'
As far as it being a well made good quality laminated archtop, its a 9
As far as it being a Johnny smith, its a 0
I dont know whether to score it on what it is, or what its supposed to be so again 5 seems to be the fair answer.
Like I said great laminate topped big heavy beast. But if your looking for a finely made hand carved acoustic guitar with pups for jazz, look elsewhere!
Features:If this guitar was what it was supposed to be, I could give it a 10.
Unfortunately the Ibanez 2461 Johnny Smith 'copy' is not actually a real copy at all.
It has a spruce Laminate top that makes the guitar very heavy and very dead acoustically.
Unfortunately most fans of the vintage Ibanez market will tell you that this guitar is a 'Faithful' copy or just a 'copy' often getting very excited about how much it should cost, and that the high prices reflect that quality and its closeness to the original Gibson.
This is not rue.
It hs an ebony fretboard which is nice, and dressed frets. (Be careful) if you buy a used guitar with dressed frets from the vintage market, you need to make sure the frets have got a lot of life left.
If they have been stoned or levelled, the frets may need replacing sooner and it is very expensive getting a repair man to replace the fret dressing or keep the original. (owners may sell on their vintage guitars with this problem, so they wont have to do it themselfs. Most would probably not bother getting the frets re-dressed but then the guitar would not be as collectable, or command as much money)
The super 70's pickups are ok, but not as nice as the routed humbuckers. (personal taste)
The neck construction is three piece laminate maple which isnt as 'upmarket' as the original. Im not saying the necks arent good, just not as good as the Gibson Johnny smith. Another reason why I scored this guitar lower.
The sides and back are nice.
The paint job is good.
The split markers are good quality.
It's a problem when you research. This guitar in the Ibanez world is generaly known as a copy of the Gibson Js. If it is, it is a very cheap one.
As far as it goes being a laminate topped heavy archtop more in the aria FA71 style, then its very good.
I gave it 5 because it would be a 10 for a lam top and a 0 for a johnny smith, which is why people generally want to buy this guitar.
Sound Quality:Very dead acoustically due to the cheaper laminate top.
The thinner floating pickups have never really given me the jazz tone I like. If you want more wes etc, these arent the best choice.
The ebony fretboard does help.
Reliability/Durability:Big Heavy built like a tank. Should have no probs.
Ease of Use:Not really my type of guitar. if your sitting down its ok but its heavy so standing is a problem.
The smaller neck and body is good but its still a big heavy guitar.
If you think because its lam, it will feed back less, think again.
These things feed back like a banshee. If your playing on stage and anywere near your amp, you will feed back. If you play with a drummer at any volume, you will feedback.
Reviewer Background: BA Jazz
Purchased From: Private
Price: 800.00 GBP USED
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11-12-2013 05:43 AM
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Why would anyone want a cheap Gibson copy when they own a Collings, beats me.....
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I have 2 nice 16".
Originally Posted by larry graves
I'm a greedy bastard and want some 17"
Maybe even an 18"
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What about a Heritage JS?
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When I was younger the Gibson JS was my ultimate fantasy. So when I saw an Ibanez for sale I was thrilled and picked it up immediately. It sat in its case for nearly all its time with me. Each time I brought it out I was put off by the chunky neck, the battleship construction and the fully armed battleship heft. Plugged in, it had all the life of a cardboard box.
That was just me I guess, or the one I had. I'll tell you, each time I went somewhere with it, my hands got so fatigued from just schlepping it that I didn't want to play.
I saved up my money-for a long time- and did get a Gibson JS, and then a Guild AA. Both are everything I ever wanted and I have never regretted it.
I think of the Ibanez Johnny Smith as a trainer guitar. It's what Ibanez had to go through before they could make an instrument they should be proud of. I think anyone'd be better off with a contemporary Ibanez, even with a set in PU they are more acoustic and easier to play than those old bricks.
That's just my opinion having owned one and being a player who values a playable instrument.
David
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Originally Posted by TruthHertz
And that's exactly what I needed to hear
From someone who owned one.
Thank you.
I'm sitting here playing my Collings. It's an absolute joy and easily the best guitar I've ever owned.
This is not the time to go backwards!
Ok it's going to be a Gibson JS then. It may take some time.
It will be worth the wait.
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Probably a great instrument but I'm never going to get to play one and I've never heard one and thought "that's the sound" Originally Posted by 3625
I am getting an outstanding sound from the Collings. In fact I'm surprised it's so rich. I really wasn't expecting that from a 16' laminate. I will post when I get a few days to record something.
The desire for a JS is just an over the top fantasy. It will take some time.
No hurry.
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A Campellone Deluxe ticks all the right boxes too especially if you find one with the 1.75" wide nut and 25" scale length. The Gibson Johnny Smith has a 3" rim depth as does the Campellone Deluxe.
You can often find the Campy Deluxe used for about $4250 plus/minus $250 or so. So, way more affordable than the Gibson JS. It is essentially the same guitar.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-12-2013 at 07:30 AM.
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I had one for 4 or 5 years before I picked up my Wes L5.... Totally different guitars and tone. While I love the L5, I do miss the crisp, dry tone of the ibanez. It was sort of like a 17" GB10 and sounded very much like the Benson clip on YouTube with McCoy.... Exact same model from what I can tell, unless Benson's was a custom version with a solid top, don't know about that. It was somewhat heavy, but not as heavy as the L5.
I've never played a real JS, but for the money, I dug it and wish I had kept it. Apples and oranges.
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Originally Posted by Philco
I think the above comments are misleading.
IF you compare the Ibanez lawsuit guitar to a genuine Gibson Johnny Smith guitar of the 60s....there IS
no comparison whether someone gives it a 9 or 0. It's the same as thinking about a real certified
diamond and a fake synthetic diamond..they both shine, but there are lots of subtle differences and
a jeweller or other interested party would give you next to nothing on trying the sell the synthetic diamond
(or facsimile).
The authentic Johnny Smith is has a carved book matched AAA sitka spruce top with bear claw striations.
This is the finest stable violin sound quality top. The back is book matched AAA flamed Michigan violin
back maple and is carved. These are very expensive woods and no Asian factory is going to get their hands
on this special wood, so that is my first point.
I dont know whether to score it on what it is, or what its supposed to be so again 5 seems to be the fair answer.Like I said great laminate topped big heavy beast. But if your looking for a finely made hand carved acoustic guitar with pups for jazz, look elsewhere!
A fake IS a Fake is a Fake. You can find a lot of Asian fakes on Fleabay these days trying to imitate the real McCoy, some selling at ridiculous asking prices, because they think they can pass off an Asian fake with "Gibson" on the headstock, (which in many cases is not even the correct logo) , and there are enough suckers out there that will part with their cash for a fake.
Features:If this guitar was what it was supposed to be, I could give it a 10.
Unfortunately the Ibanez 2461 Johnny Smith 'copy' is not actually a real copy at all.
It has a spruce Laminate top that makes the guitar very heavy and very dead acoustically.
Unfortunately most fans of the vintage Ibanez market will tell you that this guitar is a 'Faithful' copy or just a 'copy' often getting very excited about how much it should cost, and that the high prices reflect that quality and its closeness to the original Gibson.
Lots of Asian made guitars are pressed plywood. That is the only way, (with the exception of maybe the Japanese made Terada guitars), that they can sell them in production quantities. Some even have fake Gibson serial numbers, stolen from real Gibson guitars..the fake artists don't care as long as they get their money.
It has an ebony fretboard which is nice, and dressed frets. (Be careful) if you buy a used guitar with dressed frets from the vintage market, you need to make sure the frets have got a lot of life left.
If they have been stoned or levelled, the frets may need replacing sooner and it is very expensive getting a repair man to replace the fret dressing or keep the original. (owners may sell on their vintage guitars with this problem, so they wont have to do it themselfs. Most would probably not bother getting the frets re-dressed but then the guitar would not be as collectable, or command as much money)
Fake guitars are NOT really considered to be collectable guitars so the resale price is very doubtful.
The super 70's pickups are ok, but not as nice as the routed humbuckers. (personal taste)
The neck construction is three piece laminate maple which isnt as 'upmarket' as the original. Im not saying the necks arent good, just not as good as the Gibson Johnny smith. Another reason why I scored this guitar lower.
The sides and back are nice.
The paint job is good.
The split markers are good quality.
It's a problem when you research. This guitar in the Ibanez world is generaly known as a copy of the Gibson Js. If it is, it is a very cheap one.
As far as it goes being a laminate topped heavy archtop more in the aria FA71 style, then its very good.
I gave it 5 because it would be a 10 for a lam top and a 0 for a johnny smith, which is why people generally want to buy this guitar.
Most Asian but not sure about the Ibanez lawsuit have MOT (Mother of Toilet "seat") fake pearl markers.
Sound Quality:Very dead acoustically due to the cheaper laminate top.
The thinner floating pickups have never really given me the jazz tone I like.
The ebony fretboard does help.
You need more than an ebony FB to make an all around great sounding guitar. Ibanez has done a good job on Benson's GB200 in the past few years, but whenever I see videos of him playing a Johnny Smith...it is the real thing, not a fake Gibson. I don't think that GB would be caught dead playing a fake look-a-like on stage.
Price: 800.00 GBP USED[/QUOTE]Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-14-2013 at 06:55 AM.
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There IS no comparison to the authentic Gibson Johnny Smith..that is why they fetch a very high price Originally Posted by Philco
And that's exactly what I needed to hear
From someone who owned one.
Thank you.
I'm sitting here playing my Collings. It's an absolute joy and easily the best guitar I've ever owned.
This is not the time to go backwards!
Ok it's going to be a Gibson JS then. It may take some time.
It will be worth the wait.
today and still in great demand. Some are selling at $20,000 or more. A new Gibson custom shop
Wes Montgomery L5 or a dual pup CES model is selling between 9 and $10,000. I'm sure that there
are alot of Asian factories chomping at the bit to get a piece of that market..but they can't and they
never will with their fake look-a-likes that sound like crap. When you play an authentic JS model,
when you strum its strings acoustically or finger that jazz chord, the instrument comes alive in your hands...its a bit like why the serious violin players out there just lust to get their hands on a Stradivarius....
Sure, lots of Asian copies of violins out there...but they are NOT the real Stradivarius that serious concert violinists would give their eye teeth to own one..at re-sales of over a million today..IF you can even find one.
Why do you think that some 1959 Les Paul standards are approaching $300K today?
Its te tone..the tone..
and the second reason.... they are not making 1959 Les Pauls anymore...only re-issues.Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-14-2013 at 07:06 AM.
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Geez, I'm as big a Gibson fan as they come, and my L-5C has a factory JS pickup (just like Whitfield's). So I'm sold on how special they are. And I don't want to trade for an Ibanez version! But George Benson absolutely does play an Ibanez Johnny Smith copy/imitation/whatever; you can see it in video performances from the 70s and 80s. It's not a Gibson. It's an Ibanez. Do you really think George would play a piece of crap guitar? George would shake his head at this conversation.
I would take the scathing review with an enormous grain of salt. There are lots of people who can't appreciate a good instrument because it falls short of an ideal to which it allegedly aspires. And people like that love to go on the internet and piss on stuff, because it makes them feel like discerning experts. Me, I prefer to appreciate the nuances of a special guitar, yet also acknowledge the utility and quality of lesser alternatives. It's rarely black and white. There's definitely room for an $1800 Ibanez JS "copy" to co-exist in the marketplace with $9K Gibson Johnny Smiths.
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I think this sounds pretty good:I don't think that GB would be caught dead playing a fake look-a-like on stage.
Last edited by yebdox; 11-14-2013 at 10:37 AM.
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I played a late 60's Johnny Smith for many years. Very comfortable guitar. But from what I've seen, the Ibanez copies were not true to the originals. They "look" heavier built, appear to be almost an inch deeper, and I believe they have a longer scale. I could be wrong.
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Ibanez has not made Gibson copies since the 1970's, so the whole discussion is quite irrelevant. Some of the 70's so called "lawsuit" guitars are quite collectible and carry a heavy price.
I would recommend looking into the new Ibanez models, you have a great choices from the Japanese made custom shop guitars to the affordable ones from their Chinese production lines, just as good.
I have had many Gibson, Fender and Ibanez guitars all the way from the 60's. Currently my two favorite guitars are 1969 Gibson Super 400 CES and 2011 Ibanez AK95.
The Ibanez is absolutely perfect, its 3-piece mahogany/maple/mahogany neck stays in its setup with .13 strings. The quality all around is perfect. With its S58 pickups, it has a very expressive, slightly dark tone and lots of sustain.
The old Gibson is well built in the sense that it is made of very good materials. Being hand-made, it has little akward flaws here and there, and has needed some luthier work after manufacture. As one can imagine, it has a big accoustic sound, and also a beatiful electric sound when played through the neck pickup and a good amp. Many of the jazz greats have recorded with the S-400 CES, so its sound is well documented. It is not the easiest guitar to play.
I play the Ibanez 80% of the time, the Gibson 20%. I love both guitars and will never let them go.
My point here is that the price, country of manufacturing does not have much to do with the end result, which is the music coming out of the speakers of the amp.
Hannu
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the most important point, IMO. The Ibanez may not be the same guitar as the Gibson, but if set up properly, it's a great sounding guitar. There is only so much you can do to change classic designs. If you love a nice archtop, you would enjoy the Ibanez, though you might prefer something else. Wish I still had it. I should have run the jack out the end pin, as Benson obviously did.My point here is that the price, country of manufacturing does not have much to do with the end result, which is the music coming out of the speakers of the amp.
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more on the Ibanez lawsuit guitars..
http://www.guitarattack.com/destroyer/lawsuit.htm
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The history on the above link is not quite right. The Hoshino company didn't buy Ibanez in the 60's. Hoshino started importing guitars of Spanish luthier Salvador Ibanez in 1929 to Japan. In the early 30's they started building them in Japan under licence. They were building electric guitars already in the 50's. The lawsuit only had to do with the use of the "split diamond" logo. The Gibson lawsuit never went to court, Gibson withdrew the suit as Ibanez (Hoshino) had already stopped using the logo. Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
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See, now it's painfully obvious why guys like George Benson don't give a sh*t about stuff like this. When George plugs in his fake, cheap, ersatz Ibanez JS with its dodgy manufacturing history, he is so ignorant to all of the facts of its provenance that he simply refuses to sound bad and proceeds to rip up jazz tunes on stage. Almost like he would if the guitar was a real Gibson Johnny Smith... It's just uncanny.
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Just that things wouldn't get completely confused here, George Benson does or did not play a Johnny Smith guitar, copy, original or fake.
None of the three Ibanez George Benson models have anything in common with what was the Gibson Johnny Smith guitar.
Just check the specs, not even close. Ibanez does not make a Johnny Smith guitar, neither does Gibson any more.
Hannu
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Originally Posted by hannu
I've seen him play a Gibson Johnny Smith many times back in the day
in fact he's playing one in this video
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Thanks Wintermoon. Saved me the need to reply in depth. GB can be seen playing Ibanez 17" archtops with 1 or 2 floating pickups, clearly the JS copies with the post-lawsuit headstock, in his pre-GB10 days.
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right RP, he's playing the Ibanez J.S. in the above videos w/Mcoy Tyner
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The Campellone Deluxe is a very fine guitar, with many JS-like features. The only significant difference for me is the Deluxe often has a 16" body, and the Gibson JS always had a 17" body. There's a Deluxe on eBay now with $4250 BIN and 4 (rejected?) offers. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Last edited by DC Ron; 11-14-2013 at 10:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by yebdox
I've bought 2 guitars from Roger (Archtop Dream) and have spoken to him about this one. He tells me it's quite light in weight and loud acoustically. Probably a fine guitar but I'll save my $ for the one I'm really after.
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