Tone Master Super Reverb announced

**Gitfiddler** · 07-12-2021, 03:09 PM

Back in the late 60's, early 70's I worked fairly steadily on weekend gigs with a pretty decent RnB band. The rhythm guitar player (Walter) had a Super Reverb. I had a Fender Pro (non-reverb) with a 15" speaker. As much as I loved my Pro, I envied that Super Reverb's punch, clarity and lush reverb. It just had a great, room filling sound that I likened to a mini-PA system. The tilt-back legs worked to direct the sound up and away from the ears of the seated audience as well as dancers. That worked exceptionally well when the band was on an elevated stage. I had my Pro propped up on a chair or egg crate. Still, nothing I did could match that awesome Super Reverb's bark.

Fast forward to this millennium. I'd love one of the new Super Reverb amps...even though there aren't many venues to use its intended sonic beauty.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-12-2021, 03:50 PM

All the Tone Masters have been modelling Blackface amps. A tweed Bassman would have been a nice addition. (Or a tweed Deluxe, if you are thinking smaller.)

**ruger9** · 07-12-2021, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

If the Super Reverb sounds good at lower volumes, I may be interested though. That would be great.

A cranked up Super reverb sound at lower volume is one of the holy grails people have been after for decades...

**Jimmy Mack** · 07-12-2021, 10:38 PM

I Remember trying out a Tele at a guitar show, plugged into a BF SR. Even at low volume, the tone was superb. I always wish I could go back to 1972 and buy a used BF SR instead of the boat anchor Twin Reverb I bought for a lot more money

**Litterick** · 07-13-2021, 05:04 AM

A virtual reverb tank would be no fun at all. If you cannot tap it and shake it to make spooky noises, what use is it?

**Marty Grass** · 07-13-2021, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Litterick

A virtual reverb tank would be no fun at all. If you cannot tap it and shake it to make spooky noises, what use is it?

How about giving it a good jar by accident with the volume up? That'll get the adrenaline flowing.

**Litterick** · 07-13-2021, 07:38 AM

I saw a YouTube video of somebody making music with reverb tanks, plucking the springs. It was mesmerising.

**rolijen** · 07-13-2021, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

How about giving it a good jar by accident with the volume up? That'll get the adrenaline flowing.

Ah, reverb springs! Sorry to go off topic, but I recall my first nice amp—it was an Ampeg with this weird lever in back that you would engage to ‘lock’ the reverb springs. The music store guy instructed me to engage this lock before moving the amp or else the reverb would break. I was meticulously obedient. But i still remember worrying about breaking my reverb just moving the amp!

I must say that the reverb on that amp was not that great in the first place. But my trusty old Super Reverb is now 55 years old and has been moved hundreds of times. No Reverb lock and miraculously, its reverb works perfectly.

I hope they got the ‘verb’ right on the new TMSR.

**entresz** · 07-13-2021, 07:13 PM

The reverb on the TM Deluxe Reverb amp is great. If that's anything to go by, I'm sure the reverb in the new TM Super Reverb will be really good.

**Jx30510** · 07-13-2021, 10:12 PM

At 1500€ it better be really good.
This is the highest price I've seen for a non tube amp I think
Not saying it won't be fine, I'm not in the tube /not tube debate (don't care about these discussions), but that is a steep price.
Some already think Fender won't sell it.. Hope not for them, but it is a risky positioning in the amp market.
Very curious to hear how it sounds, and... tempted. So it may find it's public, the SR is such a legend of an amp

**feet** · 07-14-2021, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

Are you kidding? Just look at it! Who wouldn't want that?

From a practical viewpoint, that's a lot of surface area to drive. I'm guessing you need a minimum venue size to get the full tonal potential, more than my room.

I had an old Super Reverb a few years ago. It was heavy and awesome, but I could barely use any volume with it before it was overwhelming. Years earlier I played venues where a Super or a Twin was the right size. Those days are gone. I now have a 1980s Fender Concert wired by Rivera with a 12" speaker. That amp weighs 60 lbs, more than the new Super Reverb.

If the Super Reverb sounds good at lower volumes, I may be interested though. That would be great.

as cool as i think it is, i can't imagine that would be my first choice, and i would not have expected this to be the way to meet demand. i just figured that we are in an age of itty bitty, and even though it's half the weight of the original, it's still all of the size. maybe that's enough for people to say "screw it, i'm getting the big one" because big ones are cool and 410s are a different experience, but i just thought they were kinda niche-y. 110s, 112s, and 212s for the brave have been the bread and butter for guys that play out. this is... a pleasant surprise. i wish it well.

honestly, were i buying today, i don't think i could justify it. i just don't need that kinda horsepower/mass. if they are all the same basic (digital) preamp, i'd be inclined to get the smallest one and just run it direct into my computer and hope it was loud enough for small gigs. i'm not familiar with the line so i wonder if it's a 1:1 tonal recreation, or they give you a little more leeway with volume, distortion and tone. i always thought fenders were sort of small/medium/large within their respective eras.

**ruger9** · 07-14-2021, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by feet

as cool as i think it is, i can't imagine that would be my first choice, and i would not have expected this to be the way to meet demand. i just figured that we are in an age of itty bitty, and even though it's half the weight of the original, it's still all of the size. maybe that's enough for people to say "screw it, i'm getting the big one" because big ones are cool and 410s are a different experience, but i just thought they were kinda niche-y. 110s, 112s, and 212s for the brave have been the bread and butter for guys that play out. this is... a pleasant surprise. i wish it well.

honestly, were i buying today, i don't think i could justify it. i just don't need that kinda horsepower/mass. if they are all the same basic (digital) preamp, i'd be inclined to get the smallest one and just run it direct into my computer and hope it was loud enough for small gigs. i'm not familiar with the line so i wonder if it's a 1:1 tonal recreation, or they give you a little more leeway with volume, distortion and tone. i always thought fenders were sort of small/medium/large within their respective eras.

I get where you're coming from... a 4x10 is a little big for my home space- I certainly don't need to move that much air at home.... it would be a gigging amp for me. And even then, ONLY because it has an attenuator. If the TUBE Super Reverb was only 36 lbs, but had no attenuator, it would be useless to me. The lower weight and the attenuator are what make these amps stellar, IMO. But yeah- a 410 is really a gigging amp, for me... and I currently gig with 1x12's!

**feet** · 07-14-2021, 06:35 AM

ditto. i'm looking at my ac15hw and it's just a behemoth. and it weighs a solid 50 lbs. so a 410 that's 15lbs lighter and has three times the power is baffling to me. sure sounds fun, but it just seems... unreasonable? anything past 15 watts is for playing stadiums.

i want bigger amps, but it's hard to talk myself into it when my 100 watters have been in storage for a year.

another thing that i assume will be addressed is the speakers themselves; they break up earlier than other fender speakers, which is the whole point of these amps, i'm assuming. according to the brief digital research i just did, it's the speakers that make these distinct. if you ran a twin through those speakers you'd still kinda get something similar, but if you ran a super reverb though a 212 you get nothing. well, big clean.

and to get that break up, you'd still have to get the volume well past reasonable levels.

so i guess we'll sit back and wait until we start seeing demos.

**citizenk74** · 07-14-2021, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by feet

ditto. i'm looking at my ac15hw and it's just a behemoth. and it weighs a solid 50 lbs. so a 410 that's 15lbs lighter and has three times the power is baffling to me. sure sounds fun, but it just seems... unreasonable? anything past 15 watts is for playing stadiums.

i want bigger amps, but it's hard to talk myself into it when my 100 watters have been in storage for a year.

another thing that i assume will be addressed is the speakers themselves; they break up earlier than other fender speakers, which is the whole point of these amps, i'm assuming. according to the brief digital research i just did, it's the speakers that make these distinct. if you ran a twin through those speakers you'd still kinda get something similar, but if you ran a super reverb though a 212 you get nothing. well, big clean.

and to get that break up, you'd still have to get the volume well past reasonable levels.

so i guess we'll sit back and wait until we start seeing demos.

If you are gigging, it's all about the room. If there is competent FOH sound reinforcement, no worries. Then I just bring my minimum kit - small amp, maybe a pedal or two. But if the room is large, and FOH is lacking in any way, you need coverage. Stacks look killer, and sound great, but are really, really beamy. The amp with an open back and tilt-back legs works very well in these situations. Everyone in the room can hear your guitar as clearly as they can the vocals - and nobody gets hearing damage. Sound reinforcement is dispersion, dispersion, dispersion.

**entresz** · 07-14-2021, 11:34 PM

I'm really keen on the 4x10'' setup because I have severe bordering on profound hearing loss in one ear (not due to loud music by the way). My favourite speaker is the JBL D130 but 15'' speakers , and 12'' speakers to a lesser extent can be quite beamy. If I turn my head even slightly, what I hear from the amp changes a lot.

I'm hoping with a 4x10'' amp, sound will disperse much wider and hopefully I will hear it better.

**Little Jay** · 07-15-2021, 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

All the Tone Masters have been modelling Blackface amps. A tweed Bassman would have been a nice addition. (Or a tweed Deluxe, if you are thinking smaller.)

I’m pretty sure that will be Fender’s next ToneMaster series….

**stevo58** · 07-15-2021, 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Little Jay

I’m pretty sure that will be Fender’s next ToneMaster series….

Probably. But I’d love a brownface, with “harmonic vibrato.”

**citizenk74** · 07-15-2021, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by stevo58

Probably. But I’d love a brownface, with “harmonic vibrato.”

Like my '64 Fender Vibroverb? My #1 gigging amp for many years. Never gonna give it up!

**Little Jay** · 07-15-2021, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by citizenk74

Like my '64 Fender Vibroverb? My #1 gigging amp for many years. Never gonna give it up!

That’s one cool amp! Hopefully not with a JBL because then it’s heavier then my Twin! They came from factory with a Jensen C15N?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-15-2021, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by stevo58

Probably. But I’d love a brownface, with “harmonic vibrato.”

The Strymon Flint pedal does a convincing harmonic vibrato.

**citizenk74** · 07-15-2021, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Little Jay

That’s one cool amp! Hopefully not with a JBL because then it’s heavier then my Twin! They came from factory with a Jensen C15N?

Actually, mine is the Brown Tolex 2 - 10" Jensens version. I had a Black tolex 1 - 15" but it wasn't a JBL (My Dual Showman Reverb had two 15" JBL D-120Fs, if memory serves) but i couldn't keep it (the VV) working. It must have been struck by lightning, or something. None of the techs I took it to could figure out what was wrong with it. Tough luck, b/c is sounded great! Got it from the guy I got my ES-345TDSTV from.

But the Brown VV is just the best. Two tens, tilt-back legs, excellent reverb, and of course, that distinctive "harmonic vibrato" which is just slinky. I got it from a jazz guy for whom "distortion is not my thing" - his loss, my gain! It's true, anything much over three on the dial with humbuckers (I had yet to get my first Strat) got some harmonic enrichment, the growl started about five and anything over six and a half was a primal scream. Bliss!*

* I sold my Sunn Concert Lead and a 6 - 10" Traynor Bass Mate cab to raise the dough for the VV. I was so thrilled with the amp I forgot to collect the money. Thirty years later, I get a letter in the mail , a check for $200, and an apology note. I wrote the guy back and thanked him and told him I had forgotten the whole thing and thanked him profusely. Then i cashed the check. Money is always useful.

**EllenGtrGrl** · 07-15-2021, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Gitterbug

Actually, a P10R weighs a little less than a 10" Tornado Neo. It also costs less, unless it's the P10R-F version developed for Fender expressly. The power handling is just 25W max. against Torndo's 100W, but apparently sufficient in the 4x10 configuration.

Edit: Interesting that they now announce the power as 44 watts, when with the first Tone Masters they spoke about XXX digitial watts equivalent to yy tube watts.

I think Fender didn't state it right. From reading what Fender said about the Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb, the digital power amp is capable of 100w output, but the way they voice the amp, it only puts out 22 watts.

OK, soapbox time for me - along with being employed as a Quality Engineer, I also have a bit of an electronics background (courtesy of Engineering Degree #1, and having had a ham radio license since I was a teenager [I've built both kit radios, and restored vintage tube-type ham radios]). Watts is the unit of power output. The equation for it is:

Watts (output power) = (the output RMS voltage of the amp) x (the current of the signal going to the speaker[s])

Therefore, there is no difference between "tube watts" vs "solid state watts". 45 watts is 45 watts regardless of whether or not the final amplifier stage uses tubes, ICs or transistors. Now with that in mind, the perceived loudness of a tube amp may be more at a specific output power, due to the way the output is distributed (known as power density). Tube guitar amps are NOT very hi-fi, and as a result, distribute the output power over a narrower (typically midrange focused) frequency range, this makes things louder, and punchier sounding - it's the reason why a guitarist with a 50 watt marshall, can overpower volume-wise, a 2000 watt PA (yes, that can happen - I talked to a sound man who had just that situation happen). Solid state setups distribute the output power in a more hi-fi manner, over a wider frequency range. As a result of the wider dissipation of the power, it doesn't sound as punchy and as loud as a tube amp. A good analogy to use to illustrate this is water flow. Both amps have to get the same amount of water to the other end of the pipe each minute the water is flowing, but for the smaller pipe (representing the narrower frequency range that tube amps output power to) has to run at a higher pressure (pressure represents volume in this analogy) than a larger pipe (representing the frequency range that solid state amps distribute power to) has to.

**stevo58** · 07-15-2021, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

The Strymon Flint pedal does a convincing harmonic vibrato.

I know, I have one. And I built a Revibe. But if it were in the amp, it would be one less thing to carry.

**jim777** · 07-20-2021, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl

I think Fender didn't state it right. From reading what Fender said about the Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb, the digital power amp is capable of 100w output, but the way they voice the amp, it only puts out 22 watts.

That's correct, the TM Super Reverb is actually 200 watts to allow it to fully capture the nuances of the 45 watts of tubes. It also has 4 processors, 2 of which are running the reverb, because they couldn't do the reverb the way they wanted to with one.

I've been holding off on getting a TM amp because I was hoping a Super might show up one day if the line was a success. I can get all the sounds I usually use out of my Mk IV combo, but it is 80 pounds with the EVM-12 in it, and it scares dogs and rattles windows on three, and that's using the half power switch to set it at 45 watts. For all the years I've had it I've never gotten it turned up enough to begin to hear breakup because it so insanely loud. I think once I get a chance to demo one of these, the Boogie will go and the Super will come home with me

**Gitfiddler** · 07-20-2021, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by jim777

That's correct, the TM Super Reverb is actually 200 watts to allow it to fully capture the nuances of the 45 watts of tubes. It also has 4 processors, 2 of which are running the reverb, because they couldn't do the reverb the way they wanted to with one.

I've been holding off on getting a TM amp because I was hoping a Super might show up one day if the line was a success. I can get all the sounds I usually use out of my Mk IV combo, but it is 80 pounds with the EVM-12 in it, and it scares dogs and rattles windows on three, and that's using the half power switch to set it at 45 watts. For all the years I've had it I've never gotten it turned up enough to begin to hear breakup because it so insanely loud. I think once I get a chance to demo one of these, the Boogie will go and the Super will come home with me

As a (former) owner of a Mesa Mk IV, your comment made me laugh out loud! With an EV speaker I think you may be a bit conservative on its weight. And yes, a TM Super Reverb sounds like a fantastic amp...on paper. Can't wait to check them out.