Amp Volume….Luna, Clarus and TB202

**chp** · 09-07-2021, 12:38 PM

Hi friends,

I am curious if the Raezer’s Edge Luna has enough overall output volume to gig with, and how it compares in terms of volume to the Clarus and Tone Block?

I currently own an AI Clarus head, as well as a Tone Block 202. All things being equal, I find the Clarus quite underpowered for gigging (despite its power on paper). I find the Quilter Tome Block 202 has quite a bit more clean volume on tap in all setting.

Where does the Luna sit, in terms of volume, relative to the others? I am about to purchase a Luna, and am curious what to expect in terms of power…..

thanks!

**chp** · 09-08-2021, 01:28 PM

Still curious…..

**Gitterbug** · 09-08-2021, 01:49 PM

I had a Quilter ProBlock and have Luna 200R now. Never did an A/B comparison, but my impression is that the Quilter was louder. The Luna stays clean all the way, Quilters can be boosted by adding Gain, i.e. dirt. But what do you need such volumes for? People seem to be happy with the new 25W Quilter SuperBlocks. Besides, you'll be hard pressed to find a light jazz cab handling 200W. I do have a solution, so expect a PM from me.

**chp** · 09-08-2021, 01:57 PM

Thanks for your reply. It’s not so much that I NEED a ridiculous amount of volume, but I would like a bit more volume than the Clarus has. As I mentioned, I find that I have to add an outboard preamp to the Clarus to get the volume I need to carry a bar/small club without sound reinforcement. In bigger spots I mic my amp, but in smaller spots with a drummer, I usually need the amp to carry the room. The Quilter is loud, but the Clarus can be kind of weak with certain drummers. I’m really just inquiring where the Luna sits, in terms of volume. If it can carry a room like the Quilter, that’s great and I will buy one immediately! If it’s closer in volume to the Clarus, it may not serve the purposes I want it for. FYI, I play through a Raezer’s edge 1x12….

**sgosnell** · 09-08-2021, 02:39 PM

Mark Kleinhaut, a regular here, gigs with a Luna, and it seems to work for him. I want one, but I just can't justify it, because I already have too many amps on hand, and no place to use them except for the practice room. I don't need much power there.

**Cunamara** · 09-08-2021, 09:58 PM

Wow, my Clarus 2r through a Raezer's Edge Stealth 12 has never not had enough volume even for outdoor gigs. It's not Fender Twin loud, but it's loud. Feedback not loudness is typically the limiting factor I have had when playing with an archtop. What speaker and cab are you using? And how heavy handed are your drummers (I have found that a lot of drummers have no sense of proportion and just hit the thing as hard as they can no matter where they are playing).

**Jonathan0996** · 09-08-2021, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by chp

Thanks for your reply. It’s not so much that I NEED a ridiculous amount of volume, but I would like a bit more volume than the Clarus has. As I mentioned, I find that I have to add an outboard preamp to the Clarus to get the volume I need to carry a bar/small club without sound reinforcement. In bigger spots I mic my amp, but in smaller spots with a drummer, I usually need the amp to carry the room. The Quilter is loud, but the Clarus can be kind of weak with certain drummers. I’m really just inquiring where the Luna sits, in terms of volume. If it can carry a room like the Quilter, that’s great and I will buy one immediately! If it’s closer in volume to the Clarus, it may not serve the purposes I want it for. FYI, I play through a Raezer’s edge 1x12….

Mark Kleinhaut (a great player, btw) did a couple videos that might be helpful to you. He compared the Clarus, Luna and Quilter, in one video on real world gig with a rhythm section. White shirt is Raezers Edge "Luna", blue shirt is Acoustic Image "Clarus SLR", black shirt Quilter "Toneblock 202." He ended up going with the Luna, which he loves. Check it out:

AMP shootout Luna vs. Clarus SLR vs. Toneblock 202 - YouTube

**chp** · 09-08-2021, 10:45 PM

I’m mainly using a Martin D18 flattop, steel string dreadnaught acoustic with an LR Baggs Anthem system installed. It uses both an under saddle transducer, as well as a microphone mounted inside the guitar. It has an onboard blender to let me dial in exactly the balance of pickup/mic I want. It sounds fabulous, but is rather low output, being an acoustic guitar. I use it with a Raezer’s Edge 1x12 loaded with a Fane coaxial speaker (recommended by Geoff). Needless to say, when I plug my 335 or tele in, it is louder, but I’d still like more volume on tap before feedback. I have generally used the AI/RE setup with my country/old time band. Not for jazz. However, when I use the Quilter TB202 with the REcab, there is A LOT more volume. The rig sounds really nice….no complaints on tone, just volume. I have been able to work around the low volume with a compressor and an EP Booster, both of which I leave always on. I

Many years ago I had a Polytone MiniBrute II that I used for jazz. It sounded great, and was LOUD. The reason I am looking at a Luna is to create a setup dedicated to jazz…..I’d like to get in the ballpark of my old Polytone tonally. But I do not want another Polytone. Ideally, I’d like to plug straight into an amp, and not need pedals also. Trying to decide if the Luna will fit the bill better than what I already have. Plus, it really looks like a great product, and I have some bad GAS for one!

**Stringswinger** · 09-09-2021, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by chp

I’m mainly using a Martin D18 flattop, steel string dreadnaught acoustic with an LR Baggs Anthem system installed. It uses both an under saddle transducer, as well as a microphone mounted inside the guitar. It has an onboard blender to let me dial in exactly the balance of pickup/mic I want. It sounds fabulous, but is rather low output, being an acoustic guitar. I use it with a Raezer’s Edge 1x12 loaded with a Fane coaxial speaker (recommended by Geoff). Needless to say, when I plug my 335 or tele in, it is louder, but I’d still like more volume on tap before feedback. I have generally used the AI/RE setup with my country/old time band. Not for jazz. However, when I use the Quilter TB202 with the REcab, there is A LOT more volume. The rig sounds really nice….no complaints on tone, just volume. I have been able to work around the low volume with a compressor and an EP Booster, both of which I leave always on. I

Many years ago I had a Polytone MiniBrute II that I used for jazz. It sounded great, and was LOUD. The reason I am looking at a Luna is to create a setup dedicated to jazz…..I’d like to get in the ballpark of my old Polytone tonally. But I do not want another Polytone. Ideally, I’d like to plug straight into an amp, and not need pedals also. Trying to decide if the Luna will fit the bill better than what I already have. Plus, it really looks like a great product, and I have some bad GAS for one!

I have never had volume issues with my Clarus/RE rig either (like Cunamara). Perhaps there is an issue with your Clarus? I cannot imagine an acoustic guitar not suffering from feedback issues when the Clarus is at full volume.

I was a Polytone player for years, but those amps are now long in the tooth and the cost of repair often exceeds the value of the amp, so I do not see the wisdom of using Polytone amps today. While I still have a Clarus and three Raezer's Edge cabinets, I have mostly gravitated to the newer Class D Henriksens. Plenty of headroom, extremely light weight, built like a tank and Polytone ish sound without the reliability problems.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 09-09-2021, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by chp

I’m mainly using a Martin D18 flattop, steel string dreadnaught acoustic with an LR Baggs Anthem system installed. It uses both an under saddle transducer, as well as a microphone mounted inside the guitar. It has an onboard blender to let me dial in exactly the balance of pickup/mic I want. It sounds fabulous, but is rather low output, being an acoustic guitar. I use it with a Raezer’s Edge 1x12 loaded with a Fane coaxial speaker (recommended by Geoff). Needless to say, when I plug my 335 or tele in, it is louder, but I’d still like more volume on tap before feedback. I have generally used the AI/RE setup with my country/old time band. Not for jazz. However, when I use the Quilter TB202 with the REcab, there is A LOT more volume. The rig sounds really nice….no complaints on tone, just volume. I have been able to work around the low volume with a compressor and an EP Booster, both of which I leave always on.

I'm a bit surprised at this. I've never had a Baggs system, but I've had many Fishman-equipped flat tops over the years, including my current Ibanez 7 string flat top - and they've all had output to spare.

I just tried unsuccessfully to find the specs on your Baggs preamp, so I don't know its maximum output voltage. Volume disparities among guitar/amp combinations usually result from differences in output voltage from the guitars and input sensitivity of the amplifiers. And if the gain pots have different tapers, you may have to turn one further toward max to get the same output the other achieves at an apparently lower setting. The numbers on the knob do not correspond to anything but the arc of rotation of the wiper in the pot - they are not proxy indicators of output voltage or power. If the Baggs has a low maximum output voltage compared to the 335 (which I strongly doubt, although I've been wrong before), it would explain a difference in maximum usable volume from the same amplifier. Try to find and compare the input sensitivities of the AI and the Quilter - a significant difference would explain why one seems louder to you than the other.

I've also seen onboard preamps with toggles for gain. I don't know that you have this inside your Baggs, but it's another possibility. I'm assuming you're using a fresh battery in it.

**silverfoxx** · 09-11-2021, 08:34 AM

I also have a Clarus & Raezers Edge ER 12 and agree with Stringswinger & Cunamara, that this combination has sufficient volume and good quality tone. I use Archtops and occasionally a CS356 Gibson ,without a problem. In the unlikely event that I wanted to lift the roof, the Mesa Boogie Mark V head with the RE cabinet would achieve that.

kind regards

**Cunamara** · 09-11-2021, 09:56 AM

So, reading around on the Internet it appears that the LR Baggs Anthem system is regarded as being a fairly low output device, which may explain the volume issue that the OP is experiencing. To me that suggests that there may need to be another preamp between the guitar and the amplifier input, despite the Anthem having a built in preamp. I have a Baggs Para Acoustic DI preamp that I've used for years with my flattop, which just has a UST and no onboard preamp or EQ, and have had pretty good results with it. I have used the DI with my Clarus many times. It is a good sounding, pretty transparent and inexpensive device.

Hope this helps!

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 09-11-2021, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

So, reading around on the Internet it appears that the LR Baggs Anthem system is regarded as being a fairly low output device, which may explain the volume issue that the OP is experiencing.

I just realized that the OP refers to the system with 2 transducers. I’m pretty sure there’s a level control for the mic to balance its blend with the piezo to the player’s taste and preference. If this is set very low, it would explain a low output level. I think it’s either in or under the battery compartment on a small circuit board along with a phase switch for the mic and a hi-lo gain switch for the piezo. There’s also probably a mono-stereo switch that will only output one of the two transducers if using a standard cable - unless using a TRS cable and 2 channels of amplification, it should be set to mono. All of these need to be set properly.

The Baggs EQ circuit is also on the dynamic side compared to many. There’s a wide range from full attenuation to full boost (at least 20 dB or so) on each band, so there’s a lot of output voltage left on the table if these are set low.