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I want to go check out some old D'Angelico guitars. There's a bunch on reverb. They mostly seem to reside at Rudy's Music in Scarsdale NY.
I've watched the YouTube videos and read up here on this forum, but there's one thing I can't figure out.
How does the market work for these guitars and how is the price determined? Lots of them seem to be around 35K. Then there's some that are in the 50-60K range. There's one out there that's 110K which doesn't seem much different than the others (maybe just wishful thinking).
Can some of the experts here weight in?
And maybe this thread can become a catch all for classic D'Angelico discussion since it's scattered around the forum right now.
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01-29-2022 11:28 PM
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Are you looking at a particular model? That can affect the realistic price by quite a lot, as can specific features. Era can have some effect as well.
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Excel or New Yorker.
Not that interested in the Style A and Style B early stuff.
Will want to play with a floating pickup or buy one that already has a pickup.
But please, go on and explain how the model and era affect things. What are the eras for these? What changed that made it a new era for this builder?
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Here are some basics:
Excels and New Yorkers sell for more than Style A and Style B models
Cutaway models sell for more than non cutaway models
D'Angelicos owned by jazz luminaries like Kenny Burrell or Johnny Smith will bring a premium price
Original models with original finish and bindings will bring more than restored models that have been refinished and rebound.
Rudy's music has what is probably the largest extant collection of genuine D'Angelicos. Many are for sale at very high prices, and they have been for sale at those prices for years.
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Well that is helpful info.
Can someone give me a range for values and real selling prices. I guess the Rudy's guitars are sale-proof. What are legitimate prices?
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You really should talk to some of the dealers who regularly have these guitars come through, like Gruhn + Carter in Nashville, Larkstreet, Retrofret, Larry Wexer , archtop.com, Norman Harris, Gary's Classic guitars - I'm sure there are a couple more. They can put your name down on an alert-list so you know when something comes up.
You should also try and get hold of a copy of Rudy's book about these guitars - it tells you a lot of important facts.
Also, the hunt is the most fun part so be patient and enjoy the ride....
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My recollection of a hearsay is that Rudy Pensa and a Japanese collector drove up the prices a long time ago by competitively mopping up all that was available and thus reducing the "free float" for decades. The ones I saw at Rudy's in 2012 were all pristine but not really for sale then.
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Pretty much all of the finer vintage guitars have become items for speculation ever since the boys on Wall Street (and their ilk) took notice some 20 years or so ago. Too many of these instruments have ended up in some vault or mansion, owned by people who have not the slightest musical interest in their possessions - that's just the way the world turns. Some owners of famous violins and cellos are actually loaning these out to players who perform with them but I've seldom heard this re a certain Loar L5 or a '55 D'Angelico New Yorker.
I know, this has been debated a thousand times - I'll stop here.
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Regarding eras, the DA's of the 30's and 40's will be more "acoustic" as the guitars made in the 50's and 60's were all made with the idea that they would be amplified. By the end, they were almost all made with cutaways as that was what the market wanted.
Most value guides recommend that each D'Angelico guitar be evaluated on it's own merits for pricing and I think that is good advice. I own three non-cut DA's and over the years, I have played about a dozen others. All have differences in specs, feel and to some extent, sound. The few that I played that I did not love all could have benefited from a better setup. In terms of sound, playability and materials, the Style A and Style B guitars only differ from the Excel in cosmetics.
Most of these collectable guitars that are left (some have been destroyed over the years) are in collections and museums. I still use them on gigs myself (they are fully insured and I only take them out on gigs where I am confident that I can protect the guitar). Here is a video of me playing my 1948 Style B live on a TV show some years back:
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Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
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As for Rudy's D’Angelicos, he has a store in NYC and a second, newer store, in Scarsdale, NY, and I believe he has a collection of D’Angelico guitars of various styles at both stores (he also keeps a handful of D’Aquistos in the Scarsdale store; I don't know what he has in NYC). As you’ve noted, the price tag for most of them is in the $25k-$75k range. The most expensive one, which goes for six figures, is Rudy’s pride and joy and was made by JD for Tony Mottola. Rudy keeps this guitar in the vault and not in the store. I’ve only met Rudy once so I don’t know him well but I have an acquaintance who’s known him for many years and he recently told me to call Rudy about a unique guitar (it's a MIJ D'Angelico style guitar) that I found that Rudy used to sell back in the 80s. My acquaintance told me that Rudy loves to talk about guitars, especially the ones that he had something to do with, and I can tell you from spending some time with him in his store a few months ago that he is very fond of his D’Angelicos. After spending about an hour with Rudy talking about my guitar and listening to him talk about his D’Agelicos I can attest to his love for the instruments. So, if you’re a serious buyer you would probably do well to reach out to him. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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I will keep an eye on this. They seem like really cool guitars.
I've seen in other markets where one or two guys will hoard all the collectibles in a given class, and it results in an unhealthy market. Buyers don't know what values are and they decide not to buy. This results in greatly reduced demand. Then sooner or later the hoarder collection gets broken up and values will go down because nobody wants them at hoarder prices.
People do want them at a market-driven price point but not at a hoarder driven price point.
The Marc Schwatz YT clip is super cool. I also would be playing out with one of these if I ever buy one. I currently take old 40s and 50s Gibsons to my gigs so why not a DA.
Seems safe to say, based on Rudy's long term holds that nobody wants a D'Angelico at 35-75K. But who knows what the future holds. Maybe they will start flying off the shelves.
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SS, bro, you made that Genuine D’Angelico do exactly what it was meant to do.
I have to say. You are one of the very best players on this forum. Always lending a helping hand with smart, with thought out advice. You talk the talk and WALK THE WALK.
John D’Angelico is proud to have 3 of his babies in your hands. By the way, you looked great in that video, you stud, you..
JD
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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I've known Rudy since the '80's and had a shop on 48th Street, though not so much recently as I am on the west coast now. Rudy has always been ahead of the curve on high end arch tops and had them even back then, when everyone else wanted Fenders and Les Pauls. I suspect that as a lot of the older jazz guys aged out of the music scene, they would know to bring their old jazz boxes to Rudy. And so he accumulated quite a collection, and became sort of a custodian of them. To his credit, if you walk into his shop and seem like you know what you are doing, he would always let you try them. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
At this point I'm not sure that he is that interested in selling them. They are a great calling card for his shops, he has a love for them, and they are extremely rare historical artifacts, and so the high prices. Maybe that is hoarding to you, but as the saying goes, go find another one. And do we really think D'Angellicos and D'Acquistos should be cheap? In a way I'm glad they are valuable so that people will know to take care of them!
At this point, with their fragility and high value, I'm not sure that it would make sense to drag them around for normal work, and I think most people would use them at home and studio except maybe special gigs. Even back in the day a lot of players toured with other guitars for that reason. And I am one who gigged vintage Fenders and still would, but they are indestructible and more easily replaced than an original D'A.
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Are they any more fragile than a Gibson or Epiphone from the same era? Are we talking binding issues or what?
I wouldn't bring a mint condition one around on gigs but if it's already got some wear on it I don't see why not.
People still want Fenders and Les Pauls way more than jazz boxes.
I'm not saying they should be cheap, I'm just saying this shows signs an unhealthy market and that makes people avoid buying and decide to get something else.
Checked Reverb again and there are a few out there at other shops besides Rudy's. Also there's always the private market. These guitars don't have to go through a middle man. Players might sell to players at times.
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That’s exactly what can make valuation hard. A lot of these guitars change hands outside of a retail market. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
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I’ve only played 2 d’Angelico’s In my life but they were life changing.
One was a ‘39 style A. This things was so smooth and wonderful. It was like a more refined prewar Gibson. Warmer, smoother, just what you always wanted out of the Gibsons.
the other was a mandolin! I’m not too much into mando, but I almost bought it on the spot. Same deal, like the most musical wonderful mando you ever heard. Gads.
also the feel of these instruments is spectacular. Ruined me for all other acoustic archtops. I love my ‘38 L-12, but I always compare it in my head to that magical style A.
I have a dream that when I get older, I’ll sell all my other guitars and just go in on a d’angelico.
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Your experience is my experience. John D'Angelico truly was the Stradivarius of the guitar. I am proud to be the caretaker of three of his guitars. Originally Posted by 6v6ster
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I applaud your desire to get a real DA and play out with it. Making music with them is what they were made for. Consider the Style A and Style B models. I have an Excel, a Style A and a Style B. If I could only keep one, it would be the Style B. Here are the other two videos from that TV show where I played my Style B: Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
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I will def consider style A and style B after hearing that video. Not sure where/how I'll end up trying out all these different models, but it's gonna be an interesting hunt. I'm in the LA area and these seem to always come up on the East Coast.
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Yes I agree to get one and play it out is wonderful. Not that you need to subject it to the road or places that might pose a problem. Myself I don't gig at least public places these days and I have played my out many times. Mostly I play it at church in the band or something that was hopefully safe. Under the proper circumstances I would still take it out and play. I have 2 New Yorkers from 37 and 49 (cutaway) and the guitars were made to be played. In my case I have owned them both for at 40 and 38 years so they have been part of me.
This is what I just could not do. Buy some super fancy mint Gibson Super 400 from the recent past, say 20 years, and then never play it for fear of wear. Both of my D'a have been play quite a bit for sure my myself. I have played the 49 much more and probably comes close to the most time I have spent playing. I am generally easy on frets and wear and to this day neither have any neck wear in the finish and the frets are fine never refretted. I don't play the 37 quite as much so I could see that staying pretty much ok. I am not one to sit down and play 3-4 hours straight day after day but after 38 years many hours been spent on that guitar.
I am rooting for you to find a D'angelico and put that baby into musical circulation. I never knew John D'angelico he died when I was about 3 years old but from all I gather he would want his guitars played DAILY AND FOR SOME AUDIANCE TOO! A guitar sitting in a glass case for display that is never really played is like someone making a perfect ribeye steak and putting it on my plate and then just as I take a bite.........they throw the steak in the garbage. Why go through the pain.
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I am fortunate to be caring for two of them at this time. The first one is a 1933 “snakehead” L-5 style 16.5” model. This one is one of his very early builds. It beats every 16” archtop I’ve ever played for sound, hands down.
The other is this 1940 Style B. It was in need of some restoration work, bringing it back to something approximating its original sunburst and a refret. I just got this picture from my luthier just this morning. After it gets its clear coat, has the hardware put back on, and is set up, it will be ready to go.
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Dang a lot of people on this forum have a D'Angelico! I came to the right place.
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I'm not a luthier, but Gibson jazz boxes started to get more heavily built as time went on, particularly the CES models. BTW no reason not to bring a guitar to a gig if you own it and want to. As I said, I used to gig vintage guitars all the time, and still would. For me, a D'A, it would have to be a very important gig, with full knowledge of protection throughout. Others might feel differently. Not to mention that other guitars might be preferable for gig volumes, Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
These guitars are rare, people avoiding buying and getting something else IMHO is not such a bad thing. I just don't think they should be easy to get, any more than a '59 burst is easy to get.
Players might sell to players, but not if they thought they were losing money, I reckon. At least ALL of the players I've ever known!
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No doubt. I don't bring the DA's to bar gigs these days, just high paid private events where I can look after the guitar with care. And I carry insurance just in case. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
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